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I second caller Barbara's emotions -- recall that song? And as for the caller afterwards, the Nazis took one real precious jewel: King Alexander Amber Room - bastards, they took down the walls and even ceiling and stored it away-
See- they are building hell while we are trying to build heaven.
Well why we are in Agan is the pipeline and to keep China from getting to the oil as well. Right now there is a energy battle between China and US, that is one reason Darfur hasnt been so difficult, China is trying to get the oil there and they dont care about thier people with regards to human right so the people suffering in Darfur dont matter the Chinese. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7503428.stm
Again its all about the oil, as long as Burma provides oil we are not attacking them for the genoside against the Karen peoples. http://blog.sojo.net/2009/06/26/ethnic-cleansing-of-burmas-karen-refugee...
Now, if pipelines through areas benefitted those areas, maybe they wouldn't be attacked.
Historically though, the extractive industries extract the wealth and resources.
We all need to remember the chickhawk neo-cons named Jason out there. Remind them that Bush fired his first commanding general in Iraq because he, Gen.Shinseki, dared to say we needed more troops in Iraq and incited the famous quote from Rumsfeld-"We fight with the army we have".We need to challenge them on how they would respond if a foreign country invaded our country-I'd daresay the would take up arms! Heck, they're taking up arms with the thought of a Democratic president right now. We need to remind them of the continuous manipulation of politics our CIA did in that area. You'd probably see each of them massively backtrack from their position because they are parroting what they hear and don't know the politics or the history of the situation. My favorite line to hear when I have one is "Well, I'm only a fiscal conservative, really I'm more liberal when it comes to......"
L Grace,
Re: "Pipeline" --- Scan Tuesday's blog:
http://www.thomhartmann.com/2009/12/01/tuesday-december-1-2009/#comments
>> L Grace,
>> This “invade the neighbor” strategy doesn’t fly with me, either. That’s why I think there’s more going on, like the pipeline we’ve discussed.
I missed the pipeline discussion but I heard Thom make his prediction yesterday.
It's not much of a prediction -- a pipeline between the central republics and India have been talked about for years. I think even some engineering has been done.
The other proposed pipeline that is forever talked about is from the central republics south through Afghanistan and Balochistan to the Arabian Sea.
Both pipelines have the problem of being indefensible to attack by the many radical tribes and groups in the area.
In my best Porky the Pig voice...
--We voted for Obama because he wasnt McCain or one of the even crazier right wing NUTS.--
AMEN!
Civilization is based upon the systematic genocide/conquest of tribal peoples or anyone living contrary to civilizations viral/cancerous values. It all started in our culture with the rise of totalitarian agriculture, in that all the land on Earth belongs to us and if anyone is against us (such as "nature") then they deserve to die.
While this mindset does not at all reflect ourselves or the human mind, it is there in our culture and a few actually believe it. Poverty arose because the conquerers wanted to make the conquered slaves or to exterminate or to absorb them in our ways. If our "cancerous" values were no longer made sense to us then poverty wouldn't even exist.
>> Food Fascist December 3rd, 2009, 10:28 am
>> President Obama has never been a progressive and those of us who are progressives have never pretended that he was
I have to disagree with you on that point -- I think the outrage we are hearing against Obama is because lots of Progressives and liberals had a fantasy about Obama.
From my perspective, Obama is pretty-much living up to what he promised as a candidate.
... not perfectly, but no president -- nor any person! -- perfectly lives up to their rhetoric.
My point is this -- we liberals and progressives voted for Obama and we got what we voted for. There is no big betrayal here.
Furthermore, we are culpable for what is going on .... just like the conservatives are morally culpable for the gigantic mess that Bush made. The conservatives are a pack of weasels and deny everything or even blame it on us!. I refuse to be like them.
@zerog Warner Brothers cartoons 'that's all folks!'
L Grace,
This "invade the neighbor" strategy doesn't fly with me, either. That's why I think there's more going on, like the pipeline we've discussed.
Outraged yes, disillusioned no.
FYI Sen Arlen Specter is opposed to the Afghan surge. "Not worth the money or the lives." Sen. John Kerry supports the Afghan surge.
Not exactly like Bush but,
Not prosecuting torture.
Continuing in Iraq - (Cancelling referendum amongst Iraqis which would have removed the SOFA that enables US Forces to remain, Green Zone to remain, etc.,)
Arguing to keep Patriot Act.
Reaffirming Gates.
Larry Summers, Tim Geittner, et al.
Rendition continues.
Bowing to Republicans at every turn.
yawn.
DanM,
I have a big problem with escalating in Afghanistan to deal with Pakistan.
It's a hard lesson from Iraq, isn't it? Many people wanted to invade Iraq because of Iran. This is just a crazy strategy -- you can't deal with a country by invading its neighbor!
If Pakistan is our biggest danger, then deal with Pakistan. Not via Afghanistan.
Well Grace, where is President Obama - it ain't like he'[s showing up on Thom's radio show- he instead appeared on a right wing radio show. Instead, he reads Thomas Fried MAN for guidance on the environment and surrounds himself with free market economists. President Obama has never been a progressive and those of us who are progressives have never pretended that he was. We hold true to our Progressive Principles - we care about those principles more than whomever is in the Whitehouse, not that I can speak for all progressives, but it is my take. I do not have a crush on Obama. I am not willing to give him a pass on doing things I disagree with. If you want that, turn on CNN.
We voted for Obama because he wasnt McCain or one of the even crazier right wing NUTS.
s.b. Trilateral
Someone on this blog recently referred to Zbigniew Brzezinski's involvement with the Trialateral Commission and the Bilderberg Group, as well as his advocacy of a less-informed electorate (by way of corporate control over news.)
If one can assume the truth of that, it's interesting that Brzezinski's daughter, Mika, is a talking head hired by MSNBC to make Joe Scarborough more palatable. Now some Republicans are talking about Scarborough as potential presidential candidate with enough credibility to knock Sarah Palin out of the running (since Huckabee seems to be out of the running.)
Is this conspiracy or just a big, controlled, incestuous political ruling class/corporate excercise?
Chris Matthews and Republican political advisor Mark McKinnon discuss: (min. 5:50, video):
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036697/ns/msnbc_tv-hardball_with_chris_matt...
Zero G,
Fine, but don't act disillusioned or outraged.
You voted for this!
And if we don't "turn ourselves around..."
"Th, th, tha, that's all folks!"
Its not just about isolating the crazies its also about Pakistan coming to terms with the "Frankenstein" they created with using terror groups as proxies to attack India. We have Bin Laden we helped create as a proxy to attack the USSR, and Pakistan has the groups the ISI created and supported to attack India. For Pakistan to regain its country back from falling into chaos they will need to make peace with India and then integrate the terror groups into the political process or imprison the most radical and intractable members. Until this done the region has no hope for peace.
BTW why is not AQ Khan not under arrest, he developed the Pakistan nuclear weaopns, spread it to North Korea and Iran. He is the most dangerous person in the world and yet Pakistan just released him from house arrest.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/02/06/AR200902...
It bothers me that Thom would even affirm this blanket anger at Obama, saying he is exactly like Bush.
It is totally unfair to claim that you are betrayed by Obama, regarding Afghanistan.
Candidate Obama was perfectly clear that he intended to get MORE involved in Afghanistan and LESS involved in Iraq.
I disagreed with that, but I voted for him anyway. So did most liberals.
It's irrational to be disillusioned for Obama doing what he clearly and repeatedly promised to do!
Well L Grace:
Understand that I held my nose to vote for Obama. I knew he was a centrist, DLC-type candidate who campaigned on escalation in Afghanistan. I only did it because of the extreme restrictions of effective choice by design in this faux democratic republic.
It was with full understanding that I would be in opposition to this and other policies.
I will not be silent.
@Zero-- sounds like you could put those words to the 'Hokie Pokey' song. You put your left foot in, you put your right foot in - could be you got your Pakistan Nukes, you got your Chinese Nukes, you got your world full of Nukes and you blow it all up... that's what its all about !