and/or they may have had felony records and such but were, nonetheless, qualified

I don't know if I mentioned this on this board or another one, but most chain retailers will not hire anyone with any sort of felony record. And, since a lot of entry-level jobs are with chain retailers, that prevents people who made mistakes in their teens from ever getting their foot in the door again.

Part of the online application process for most places now includes a "consent to perform a background check". Literally, as soon as you submit your application, your name and social security number are checked for felony charges. Those with them are disqualified from consideration.

That's why I like to hear about affirmative action policies based on economic class.

That's exactly what they did with selective enrollment schools in Chicago. You've probably read this from me before, but there are only four public high schools in Chicago that are worth sending your child to. Your child has to test into those schools, and then those test scores are put up against students from the same economic "tier". There are four "tiers" in the city, all based on the average income of everyone on your block, according to the census. It just so happens that practically ALL predominantly white blocks are put in the highest "tier".

A perfect score on the high school admissions exam is 900. My daughter scored 890, which kept her out of ever single good public high school. Had we lived in any other "tier" block, she would have gotten in. Now we have to pay for private school for her ($15,000 per year), even though we pay more than our fair share of property taxes to the school system. The free public school in our neighborhood is de facto off-limits to whites.

The view from this side of Affirmative Action, wether race-based or economics-based, is much different. It's not something we "like to hear", much less experience.

Quote Aliceinwonderland:

Basically what you're saying, Mark, is that it is a "feature" of civilization to be uncivilized.

I see very little hope for humanity. - AIW

White people fussing about affirmative action talk about the tragic instances when a white guy didn't get a job or spot in school seem not to notice that such tragedies occured on a much, much more widespread basis for generations, as a fundamental rule, before affirmative action, to people other than white guys and for so many generations that it had a strong residual effect upon the structure of society.

I volunteer at a non profit located in a rough, impoverished, largely African American neighborhood. We have a few paid positions and recently we had an opening for one. We had dozens of applicants for it, most from the surrounding neighborhood by people who'd had it rough, and so, had resumes that were spotty or, at least, weren't as stellar as those of the white, middle class college brats who applied, and/or they may have had felony records and such but were, nonetheless, qualified (albeit, in a rougher sense, having gotten their knowledge and experience from life and the world - or, the "school of hard knocks", as it were, rather than a nice college and nice jobs that the college job placement counselor hooks people up with) and very eager for the opportunity (in contrast to the white kids who seemed to take the opportunity for granted as their due). Well, we tried to fill that position with someone of the former category of neighborhood resident.

Your objections to AA seem to presume an even playing field when, really, there are so many strikes against these folks from the start that something rigged a bit in their favor is not something to grouse about and might even be something to applaud.

D'Anne Marc, you're right that emphasis on "diversity" is used by the "elites" (influential policy makers) to divert attention away from general economicl injustices of our society and affirmative action can be used in that way. That's why I like to hear about affirmative action policies based on economic class.

It's true that in a just society AA wouldn't be necessary but that would require much more than free tuition and open admissions policies. There are many injustices built into the structure of society that such relatively superficial changes wouldn't do too much to address.

Kinda like reparations for African Americans, initially I thought it was a crazy idea - but I'm a white guy and African Americans I respected were for it so I withheld rejection of it and tried to understand it. It seems African Americans, because of their past - which isn't even yet past - may be willing to start at the bottom but because of historical events have to start below the bottom to, first, dig their way out of a hole someone else dug and put them in. It's not too unlike the stipend individual Native Americans get for "use" of their land.

David in Vegas claims that taxes have been growing "exponentially". Really?! This bold assertain could easily be refuted by the FACTS of the matter. Here's a little something relevant to this discussion, posted by Palindromedary awhile back:

The Twain Report

All The News That Mark Twain Says He Would Report If He Was Alive Today

4-26-2013

Well, friends and neighbors, it's that day again: April 26, and time for a recounting of how our government has done over the last year:

Here is a list of huge corporations that profit from using the infrastructure that OUR taxes pay for. Why do I say OUR taxes? I say it because these corporations pay NO taxes. Instead, they shove off all of the tax burden on the middle class and the poor. Even though they are making incredibly massive profits, and even though their trucks drive on the roads that our taxes paid to build and that our taxes pay to maintain, and they use our police forces and fire departments that our taxes pay to run, they use our courts that our taxes pay to run, they are protected by our military, which OUR taxes support, and they are the main beneficiary of the laws that congress passes, while we are stuck paying for the salaries and perks and benefits of congress.

1. Bank of America, which, in 2010 set up over 200 "subsidiaries" in the Cayman Islands, which is kind of handy because the Cayman Islands don't tax corporations (unless you consider bribing certain Cayman Island banking executives and government officials to be a tax…). And so Bank of America pays no corporate taxes in America because it isn't really the Bank of America, it's the bank of the Cayman Islands, although it does most of its business in America and makes most of its profit in America, but that's beside the point. And during the financial crisis that Bank of America helped create, Bank of America got over $1.3 trillion in total financial assistance- dare I say "corporate welfare?"- FROM BIG GOVERNMENT.

2. JP Morgan Chase, which, in 2010 operated 83 "subsidiaries" in offshore tax havens to avoid paying $4.9 billion in taxes in America. And during the financial crisis- which JP Morgan Chase also helped create, it received over $400 billion in financial assistance FROM BIG GOVERNMENT.

3. Goldman Sachs, which in 2010 operated 39 "subsidiaries" in offshore tax havens to avoid about $3.3 billion in American taxes. During the financial crisis that Goldman Sachs helped create, it got more than $800 billion in financial assistance FROM BIG GOVERNMENT.

4. Citigroup has paid no federal income taxes for the last five years, after receiving $2.5 trillion FROM BIG GOVERNMENT.

5. General Electric has made $81 billion in profits, without paying ANY income tax on it, while receiving a tax "rebate" of $3 billion FROM BIG GOVERNMENT. GE has at least 14 offshore "subsidiaries" in Bermuda. And just for the record, you want to know what those "subsidiaries" look like? Well, in one building that is approximately 2,000 square feet, there are over 200 huge corporate offices. Well, ok, actually the "offices" are just mail slots, but hey, doesn't it give you any ideas? I mean, you want to avoid paying taxes, just put your money offshore, and it instantly disappears from the IRS's radar. No, wait, that only works if you're a super-rich corporation that has purchased congressmen. GE has stockpiled over $100 billion in cash offshore. It would be so unfair to expect them to pay their fair share of taxes, because during the financial crisis they only got a $16 billion bailout. Obviously, they needed a bailout ever so much more than the people they defrauded of a lot of that money.

6. Verizon has made over $48 billion in profits in the last five years. But not only did Verizon pay NO income tax on that money, IT GOT A $535 MILLION TAX REBATE. Sounds fair to me, hey, they're the job creators, so they should be allowed to do anything they damn well please. And I can certainly see why Verizon can't afford to pay their employees a fair living wage, because if I was making over $48 billion, I sure couldn't afford to pay my employees a fair living wage. I mean, if those employees want a fair living wage, let them pull themselves up by the bootstraps and start gaming the system the way that Verizon does. And it's also obvious that Verizon "had" to cut 13,000 jobs in 2010- the third-highest corporate layoff of the year, because they only made $48 billion, and the top executives of Verizon get to keep more of that money when they lay off thousands of employees and work the remaining employees like dogs and treat them like shit. But hey, any Verizon employee who doesn't like it can get a job somewhere else, there's jobs all over the place! Why, I know a guy who was laid off his job and spent hours every day looking for work and it only took him a year to find another job for minimum wage, so I really don't get what those whiney little crybabies are complaining about. Also, any Verizon employee can also start their own telecommunications company, no problem. Why, I think I'll start one tomorrow- I have a half hour of free time between noon and 12:30.

7. Honeywell International: from 2008 to 2010, Honeywell paid no income tax, instead getting a tax refund of $34 million. Boy, I sure wish that big government would quit regulating Honeywell, which has $8.1 billion in offshore tax havens.

8. Merck: in 2009, Merck paid no income tax, but got a tax refund of $55 million. Dang it, this is just one more example of big government standing in the way of the job creators trying to do business. How dare the government regulate Merck by giving them a $55 million tax refund when Merck didn't even pay any income tax? Merck has $44.3 billion in offshore tax havens.

9. Corning: from 2008 to 2010, Corning paid no income tax, but got a $4 million tax refund. It made about $2 billion in profits in America during those two years. Corning has $10.8 billion in offshore tax havens. Oh, it's SO hard for corporations to do business in America, with big government regulating them so heavily. I think I'll send Corning a few dollars to help tide them over until big government stops regulating them so strictly.

10. Boeing has made over $21 billion in profit in the last five years, while paying no income tax and receiving a $23 million tax refund. To paraphrase Bill Clinton: Boeing, I feel your pain.

11. Microsoft has stashed over $60 billion in offshore tax havens, freeing them from the obligation to pay $19.4 billion in income taxes.

12. Qualcomm has $16.4 billion in offshore tax havens, allowing it to dodge $5.8 billion in income taxes. Yes! The Free Market at work! Well anyway, the Free Market at work for the corporations. Because none of those tricks work for the little people. I mean, if you hid your money offshore, the IRS would fall on you like a ton of bricks. Unless, of course, you made huge "campaign donations" to congress, the way that Qualcomm does.

13. Caterpillar would owe $4.55 billion in income taxes if it hadn't stashed $13 billion in offshore tax havens.

14. Cisco Systems has $41.3 billion in offshore tax havens, freeing it of the obligation to pay $14.45 billion in taxes. You know, I have always admired corporations that can cheat in ways that you and I are not allowed to cheat.

15. Dow Chemical: in addition to manufacturing toxic chemicals that have killed countless people and sickened even more people, Dow has stashed $10 billion in American profits offshore.

IT'S SOCIALISM, THAT'S WHAT IT IS! SOCIALISM! COMMUNISM!!

So there you have it, David in Vegas. Put that in your pipe and smoke it! - AIW

Chuck- only Republicans to blame?! I strongly disagree. Some of those Democrat senators ("Blue Dogs") have been as worthless as any Republican. The way they vote, they might as well BE Republican. Here in Coos Bay, Oregon where I live, many people in the Democratic party support the liquified natural gas export faciility proposed for this area, oblivious to the health, safety & environmental issues it raises, and the property rights of those facing "eminent domain". I agree that the two parties are not identical; nevertheless, I can't get too excited about the Dems, and this is why. - AIW

P.S. Max Baucus was a "Democrat". Gag me.

Quote Aliceinwonderland:But are you assuming that everyone who got into a college or university via Affirmative Action was unqualified?

Aliceinwonderland ~ No! Actually, college admissions via AA is one of the few things about the program I liked. Education should be an equal opportunity for all. My problem is the overt discrimination it fostered in the work place. Quotas, mandatory promotions, and racist and sexist hiring practices. If any good came out of that it was to teach white people like me first hand what it feels like to be discriminated against. A valuable lesson I personally will never forget. I really didn't like it.

Quote Aliceinwonderland:"No skills in anything except being black and latino women...." Marc, are you kidding?! I can hardly believe you would say anything so presumptuous, let alone sexist and racist. Would you say there exist at least some white men who aren't skilled at anything except being white men?

Aliceinwonderland ~ Oh, you are so right. This is sexist and racist to the hilt. However, don't forget, this is an observation, not an opinion. It is Affirmative Action that is sexist and racist not me.

How do you think I felt when I went down with a Puerto Rican female friend of mine to apply for temporary work with the Census Bureau only to find out that they weren't even accepting any white male applications? How much more racist and sexist can you get than that--not even accepting applications. They had a quota of ethnic females and that was all they were hiring for temporary work. Crappy opportunity! Crappy qualifications. In retrospect I'm almost glad I wasn't allowed to apply.

Don't get me wrong, I was very happy for my friend. She got hired immediately. She deserved it too. It was a shame though that all her qualifications meant nothing and her sex and ethnicity was all that counted. I don't know about you, but that just isn't the kind of world I want to live in. Sexism and racism have a place--buried in history. It's best to leave it there.

Matt, college education was viewed differently in the '60s for the reasons I mentioned before, the economy was opulently carefree. We were a middle class society and what poverty there was was largely race based, i.e., it was largely the result of racial discrimination. There was also a very large and strong public sector and higher education was, for all intents and purposes, free of charge - or, at least, universally affordable and accessible - as tuitions weren't very high, fees were minimal, books didn't cost a lot and guaranteed student loans and grants were readily accessible to all. Thus, in the opulent, carefree sixties we could afford the luxury of thinking about "higher" purposes of education other than making money.

"No skills in anything except being black and latino women...." Marc, are you kidding?! I can hardly believe you would say anything so presumptuous, let alone sexist and racist. Would you say there exist at least some white men who aren't skilled at anything except being white men? Or is it only nonwhites and women who are incompetent workers, while the white guy is always the most skilled and the most qualified?
There's a lot you've said that I can agree with, especially where you elaborate on the need for free education and healthcare. I've already said, more than once, that we are in complete agreement that education should be free, pre-K to PhD. But are you assuming that everyone who got into a college or university via Affirmative Action was unqualified? That's taking quite a leap. And the gap between the poor and the rich is a much broader issue. Nobody ever promised AA was going to fix that, all by itself.

At any rate, I am getting really tired of this discussion and am ready to give it a rest. Affirmative Action is history anyway, so why keep kicking at a dead horse? - Aliceinwonderland

It’s not left or right, that is the dual illusion game to keep you trapped. Divide and conquer game.

On May 13, you had Alex SeitzWald on the show and you both mused at the conspiracy theorists.

“Let’s have an honest, bold, critical look at the world around us. Intelligence takes many forms: intellect, knowledge, cleverness, wit and intuition for example. But perhaps what is most called for in this era of massive deceit is open-mindedness — coupled with common sense and rigorous discernment. Critical thinking, evidence, fact checking, logic, research, and the ability to say “MAYBE, I don’t know” while we consider new information is imperative. Without it, we can fall prey to truly sinister and dangerous effects.” – Foster Gamble

Have Freeman Fly on to talk about the occult systems running this world, or is it easier to ridicule those that have alternative information?

“All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.”

— Arthur Schopenhauer, German philosopher (1788 – 1860)

Just wait Matt once the government gets control of how much the doctors get paid and they lower the doctors income the doctors take off to other countries that pay more. Trust me as a Canadian watching our doctors go south for years I can tell you it's coming.