kend -- This is just a lesson in economics. The same lesson again and again. The 17 trillion is the equivalent of bright lights and shiny objects. The thing that everyone should quote is the debt/GDP ratio. The reason for this is that government spending that is investing in our future will raise the GDP faster than the debt.
Quote Chi Matt:But they're just like any other fringe group - they think they have the answers, and anyone who disagrees is wrong/misled
We look at the policies of the new deal to reagan and think the economy was much better with them. We look at the policies of reagan to the present and think the economy is terrible. I think you are wrong and misled because you offer no counter-argument.
ckrob -- In the 13 weeks of the 5 years that Obama has beeen in office the democrats did so much good stuff. I would be glad to dump my list on you if you want. However, I think the main policy that would change the game would be "card check" (Employee Free Choice Act). One more democratic senator in 2009, and card check would have passed.
Quote Chi Matt:Aren't American comsumers also partially to blame, for not patronizing the mom-and-pop stores, even if they can afford the higher prices?
I would much prefer the marketplace, not patriotism, to determine which businesses succeed. Raising tariffs and enforcing the anti-trust laws would level the playing field, so that small mom and pop stores could compete.
Quote chuckle8:We certainly agree on breathing as being the ultimate test (LOL). We also agree that the lack of money should never be a deterrent to going to college. We disagree on the purpose of a higher education. I think under the fake limits we currently have, that one should base admissions on which students will contribute the greatest to our nation (AKA the people paying for their education). I just do not believe that scores on a test meet that criterion.
chuckle8 ~ I must have got tired last night and missed this whole switch over to the admissions subject. Perhaps I was doing too many things at once--a very bad habit all we Americans seem to be getting into.
Like I told Aliceinwonderland this is an area I'm not familiar with. All I can say is that I don't like any admission tests. Why pretest people on things they haven't learned yet. The only test that should be considered for admission anywhere is their finals in their last learning institution. If they got at least a "B" average they are admitted. A "B" average shows they are serious enough and disciplined enough to train. What more can you ask for?
If you are suggesting that some institutions use admission tests in order to discriminate I would say you are probably right. And, if so, that is absolutely wrong and should be illegal.
Personally, I agree on the first two items you mentioned above. However, I don't understand what you are saying in the one we supposedly disagree about. I could not imagine how we could disagree on the "purpose of higher education." To me, that is to prepare a child for life--the same way a mother bird prepares her babies to hunt.
And no, I don't agree that education should only be available to the kids who can pay for it. I firmly disagree. I don't think any child should have to spend a dime for a college education. That is also clearly discrimination; and, should be illegal.
Let's back up a bit. Are you trying to tell me you believe that it is possible for a 16-17 year old to be able to make the decision on what they want to do the rest of their lives and stick to it? That kid can't even vote, drive a car, or buy alcohol; yet, he/she is capable of deciding what they want to do for the rest of their life enough to go into debt for a huge portion of that life to pay for that decision? No, I don't agree with that! Not at all! No way!!!
I believe it is the responsibility of society to pick up the check for all educational expenses--as well as medical expenses--for all of its members. Medical care and education are fundamentally necessary for the smooth functioning of society; and, therefore, are the responsibility of society to pay for. I think kids should be encouraged to take all the time they need to make that critical decision. If they want to take a break after High School to become apprentices it should be encouraged. If a 40 year old is fed up with their work and want to return to college it should also be encouraged.
Strapping people in debt and locking them into the same career for life is criminal. Turning institutions of higher education into factories that produce indentured servants is not my idea of civilized! That is what I stand for and oppose!!
To me, higher education is supposed to set people free, not lock them into the bondage of slavery! However, it certainly fulfills the vision of the Powell Memo.
Aren't American comsumers also partially to blame, for not patronizing the mom-and-pop stores, even if they can afford the higher prices? The big chains didn't put the little guys out of business directly, they just took the customers.
And couldn't some of this also be traced back to dual-income households? Without one person in charge of the domestic front in a relationship, which includes the shopping, there is less time to patronize the small guys. If you only have a few hours to do all of your shopping each week, WalMart and Target become much more appealing.
Quote Aliceinwonderland:This started out as a discussion about Affirmative Action, which lead to a discussion about college admission standards.
Back in the late 1990s, while enrolled in creative writing and essay writing classes at the local community college, I was appalled at the writing skills of some of my classmates, who seemed not to know even the most basic grammar; stuff we're supposed to know before high school. - AIW
Aliceinwonderland ~ I'm sorry, I was still talking about Affirmative Action and how it was nothing more than lottering education to the lucky few as opposed to providing a quality education to everyone. I never made the switch to college admission standards. Quite frankly I know nothing about the current standards and would prefer not to comment on them.
However, in the 80"s when I was in college I had little problem with those standards. I also remember quite clearly also enrolled in a creative writing course--among other literary courses--in the local community college and found my peers to be quite proficient at writing. Actually, I was quite impressed with both their syntax and creativity. Of course, neither of our experiences constitute a functional enough sampling of the population to draw any serious conclusions; however, if that much has changed in 10 short years it would certainly help support my contention that our educational system is sorely in need of reform.
As Obama 'negotiates' SHAFTA, let us remember his excellent efforts in the past when he started with his opponent's position and negotiated from there on further to the right. I think we can depend on him to give away the store unless the opponent doesn't have a large enough truck to carry the stuff off. Then he will be glad to rent him the truck. Ain't it great when we can get folks to work together to accomplish things?
I thought I had posted this but can't find it now...
Can we find out where Cliven Bundy's parents and grandparents are buried, and run some ATVs through the cemetery and tear it up a bit? BTW...how come I can't find Thom's name in the register of licensed pilots?
You are aware that Wall St hires the top students coming out of MIT. They hire them to create the algorithms to tranche derivatives amongst other things.
I can't remember if I heard this on Thom's show, but either way, it's pretty interesting. When a small-time trader (like myself) logs on to their account, the big-time traders know when my mouse is hovering over the "buy" or "sell" keys, and can jump ahead of me to raise or lower the price by a few hundredths of a cent. They use those MIT grad's skills to get just a few miliseconds jump, but all of those fractions of a cent add up to hundreds of thousands of dollars per day.
Well, I doubt they're tracking me personally. I'm too small time for that.
I also am very good friends with a person who works for a company that does most of their business online. He showed me how they can see exactly how long someone's mouse "dwells" on a specific area of the screen. Using that information, they can tell what that person might be in the market for, and target their offerings to that person.
He could also tell who was right and left handed that way.
If I were the paranoid type, this kind of stuff might bother me. But as it is, I just find it interesting.
Quote DAnneMarc:I'm sorry!! I thought I said that, "breathing" should be the ultimate admission requirement!!
We certainly agree on breathing as being the ultimate test (LOL). We also agree that the lack of money should never be a deterrent to going to college. We disagree on the purpose of a higher education. I think under the fake limits we currently have, that one should base admissions on which students will contribute the greatest to our nation (AKA the people paying for their education). I just do not believe that scores on a test meet that criterion.
You are aware that Wall St hires the top students coming out of MIT. They hire them to create the algorithms to tranche derivatives amongst other things. I would bet those students scored really high on those tests.
Back in the late 1990s, while enrolled in creative writing and essay writing classes at the local community college, I was appalled at the writing skills of some of my classmates, who seemed not to know even the most basic grammar; stuff we're supposed to know before high school.
That's not surprising. One side effect of the pressure to increase graduation rates in a decrease in graduation standards. It's even worse now, with texting lingo and whatnot. Every year I get students who write things like "btw" and "omg" on their essays, and when I correct them on it, they literally do not know why it is wrong.
Another interesting "how things have changed" kind of fact for you: (I may have shared this already) Most schools do not even teach cursive writing anymore. Even when I was in grammar school in the late 80s/early 90s, we were taught it for just one year, and it was never enforced, so we all just went back to printing. Only two of my students still write in cursive, and I hate grading their essays, because it's hard for me to read.
Schools are also dropping "spelling" as a gradable subject after fifth grade. By then, the emphasis is on "getting it close enough for the spell checker to figure it out".
Remember Cliff Notes? Those are also old news. Now, the students watch video summaries of their novels, complete with sections about "what your teacher will ask you" and "what to talk about in an essay". Google "60 Second Recap" if you want to see one...
Marc, your post #293 makes no sense. After agreeing that anyone going to college should first be a high school grad, you ask "what does that have what to do with the price of rice in China?" HUH?
This started out as a discussion about Affirmative Action, which lead to a discussion about college admission standards.
Back in the late 1990s, while enrolled in creative writing and essay writing classes at the local community college, I was appalled at the writing skills of some of my classmates, who seemed not to know even the most basic grammar; stuff we're supposed to know before high school. - AIW
They might have HAD an agenda -- involving a GOLDMAN SACHS domination of the USA and the World. And we see how well that turned out for them. Them and the other egomaniacs in the financial industry who invested heavily in Madoff.
"The Taliban, American style. All terrain vehicles, some mounted with clean cut cowboys carrying high powered weapons with their young children. Bin Laden would have surely praised these indiscreet warriors of ignorance, so insecure and uninformed, seeking a Kodak trigger moment for reasons they can't begin to understand.
If it not were for the guns and threat of violence, I would feel sorry for these lost souls who lost out in the American dream and lied to by Fox, Limbaugh, Hannity, Beck, Savage, and numerous other nut cases interested in ratings and pushing the envelope towards a real life Hunger Games.
The HBO Newsroom in eight minutes articulated the political, economic, and religious forces of the American Taliban.
Anyone graduating from High School should have the same opportunities as anyone else who graduates. Anyone who fails to graduate from High School should be eligible for special education. Anyone who fails that should be eligible for welfare and employer assistance. Can I break it down simpler than that?
Aliceinwonderland ~ Yes, I think everyone that goes on to college should first graduate from High School... And just what does that have what to do with the price of rice in China??
Marc, you don't think prospective college students should have to prove they're ready for higher ed? Really?! Because if those prospective students haven't even mastered high school skill levels, how are they going to handle higher ed? - AIW
Maybe someone should fly over the Bundy camp and drop pamphlets with details of the Ryan budget proposals and the names of all House members who have repeatedly voted yes on them. It wouldn't hurt to include details of the Senate Republicans filibuster of the Democrat's bill ending tax breaks for jobs sent overseas. Hell, might as well add the Republican refusal to beef up funding for embassy security when reqested.....that request in order to thwart a Benghazi type attack. Seems to me like the Republicans may have known about the attack ahead of time...how did they know not to fund security at this critical moment????...just mocking the Night of the Living Foxmerized on the last statement...don't get excited!
Quote Aliceinwonderland:Or do you think colleges & universities should just admit anyone unconditionally, regardless of any of that? - AIW
Aliceinwonderland ~ Bingo!! The only thing that should matter is the desire of the student. If he/she has applied him/herself at least to the subject matter' and in any manner wants to devote themselves they should be allowed to be... ALL THAT THEY CAN BE!!
You are right. I am so used to being told different variations of "everything wrong in the world is because of Europeans", that I see it in everything now.
Quote Aliceinwonderland:English grammar is what it is; anyone starting from another language who has half a brain will understand that. Teaching English grammar is not the same as preaching that English is superior to all other languages. Grammar is objective; value judgments (i.e. "superior" versus "inferior") are subjective. Don't underestimate your students! - AIW
True. But if they've been hearing their whole lives (via music, pop culture, social media, etc...) things like, "white privledge is keeping you down" or "the system is rigged against you and your parents", or even seemingly benign things like, "be yourself" or "don't change to please anybody", it makes a teacher's job that much harder.
Some degree of assimilation is necessary if you want to succeed in this country. (Cultural treatment of women, for example. Even if it's a common practice for women in your country to be considered the "property" of their fathers and then husbands, that doesn't fly here.) Even cultures that aren't from other countries, like rural Southerners or inner-city minorities, must assimilate their dialects if they want to succeed.
But, like I said, nowadays that word (assimilation) has a very negative connotation.
Marc, you are preaching to the choir. I am among the last persons you would need to convince that everyone should be entitled to a free tax-funded education. But the Affirmative Action issue isn't about money; it's about admissions requirements. Don't you think that in order to get into college, prospective students should possess certain skills already, and a certain level of literacy? Or do you think colleges & universities should just admit anyone unconditionally, regardless of any of that? - AIW
English grammar is what it is; anyone starting from another language who has half a brain will understand that. Teaching English grammar is not the same as preaching that English is superior to all other languages. Grammar is objective; value judgments (i.e. "superior" versus "inferior") are subjective. Don't underestimate your students! - AIW
kend -- This is just a lesson in economics. The same lesson again and again. The 17 trillion is the equivalent of bright lights and shiny objects. The thing that everyone should quote is the debt/GDP ratio. The reason for this is that government spending that is investing in our future will raise the GDP faster than the debt.
Chi Matt --
We look at the policies of the new deal to reagan and think the economy was much better with them. We look at the policies of reagan to the present and think the economy is terrible. I think you are wrong and misled because you offer no counter-argument.
ckrob -- In the 13 weeks of the 5 years that Obama has beeen in office the democrats did so much good stuff. I would be glad to dump my list on you if you want. However, I think the main policy that would change the game would be "card check" (Employee Free Choice Act). One more democratic senator in 2009, and card check would have passed.
Chi Matt --
I would much prefer the marketplace, not patriotism, to determine which businesses succeed. Raising tariffs and enforcing the anti-trust laws would level the playing field, so that small mom and pop stores could compete.
chuckle8 ~ I must have got tired last night and missed this whole switch over to the admissions subject. Perhaps I was doing too many things at once--a very bad habit all we Americans seem to be getting into.
Like I told Aliceinwonderland this is an area I'm not familiar with. All I can say is that I don't like any admission tests. Why pretest people on things they haven't learned yet. The only test that should be considered for admission anywhere is their finals in their last learning institution. If they got at least a "B" average they are admitted. A "B" average shows they are serious enough and disciplined enough to train. What more can you ask for?
If you are suggesting that some institutions use admission tests in order to discriminate I would say you are probably right. And, if so, that is absolutely wrong and should be illegal.
Personally, I agree on the first two items you mentioned above. However, I don't understand what you are saying in the one we supposedly disagree about. I could not imagine how we could disagree on the "purpose of higher education." To me, that is to prepare a child for life--the same way a mother bird prepares her babies to hunt.
And no, I don't agree that education should only be available to the kids who can pay for it. I firmly disagree. I don't think any child should have to spend a dime for a college education. That is also clearly discrimination; and, should be illegal.
Let's back up a bit. Are you trying to tell me you believe that it is possible for a 16-17 year old to be able to make the decision on what they want to do the rest of their lives and stick to it? That kid can't even vote, drive a car, or buy alcohol; yet, he/she is capable of deciding what they want to do for the rest of their life enough to go into debt for a huge portion of that life to pay for that decision? No, I don't agree with that! Not at all! No way!!!
I believe it is the responsibility of society to pick up the check for all educational expenses--as well as medical expenses--for all of its members. Medical care and education are fundamentally necessary for the smooth functioning of society; and, therefore, are the responsibility of society to pay for. I think kids should be encouraged to take all the time they need to make that critical decision. If they want to take a break after High School to become apprentices it should be encouraged. If a 40 year old is fed up with their work and want to return to college it should also be encouraged.
Strapping people in debt and locking them into the same career for life is criminal. Turning institutions of higher education into factories that produce indentured servants is not my idea of civilized! That is what I stand for and oppose!!
To me, higher education is supposed to set people free, not lock them into the bondage of slavery! However, it certainly fulfills the vision of the Powell Memo.
Aren't American comsumers also partially to blame, for not patronizing the mom-and-pop stores, even if they can afford the higher prices? The big chains didn't put the little guys out of business directly, they just took the customers.
And couldn't some of this also be traced back to dual-income households? Without one person in charge of the domestic front in a relationship, which includes the shopping, there is less time to patronize the small guys. If you only have a few hours to do all of your shopping each week, WalMart and Target become much more appealing.
Aliceinwonderland ~ I'm sorry, I was still talking about Affirmative Action and how it was nothing more than lottering education to the lucky few as opposed to providing a quality education to everyone. I never made the switch to college admission standards. Quite frankly I know nothing about the current standards and would prefer not to comment on them.
However, in the 80"s when I was in college I had little problem with those standards. I also remember quite clearly also enrolled in a creative writing course--among other literary courses--in the local community college and found my peers to be quite proficient at writing. Actually, I was quite impressed with both their syntax and creativity. Of course, neither of our experiences constitute a functional enough sampling of the population to draw any serious conclusions; however, if that much has changed in 10 short years it would certainly help support my contention that our educational system is sorely in need of reform.
As Obama 'negotiates' SHAFTA, let us remember his excellent efforts in the past when he started with his opponent's position and negotiated from there on further to the right. I think we can depend on him to give away the store unless the opponent doesn't have a large enough truck to carry the stuff off. Then he will be glad to rent him the truck. Ain't it great when we can get folks to work together to accomplish things?
I thought I had posted this but can't find it now...
Can we find out where Cliven Bundy's parents and grandparents are buried, and run some ATVs through the cemetery and tear it up a bit?
BTW...how come I can't find Thom's name in the register of licensed pilots?
I can't remember if I heard this on Thom's show, but either way, it's pretty interesting. When a small-time trader (like myself) logs on to their account, the big-time traders know when my mouse is hovering over the "buy" or "sell" keys, and can jump ahead of me to raise or lower the price by a few hundredths of a cent. They use those MIT grad's skills to get just a few miliseconds jump, but all of those fractions of a cent add up to hundreds of thousands of dollars per day.
Well, I doubt they're tracking me personally. I'm too small time for that.
I also am very good friends with a person who works for a company that does most of their business online. He showed me how they can see exactly how long someone's mouse "dwells" on a specific area of the screen. Using that information, they can tell what that person might be in the market for, and target their offerings to that person.
He could also tell who was right and left handed that way.
If I were the paranoid type, this kind of stuff might bother me. But as it is, I just find it interesting.
DAM --
We certainly agree on breathing as being the ultimate test (LOL). We also agree that the lack of money should never be a deterrent to going to college. We disagree on the purpose of a higher education. I think under the fake limits we currently have, that one should base admissions on which students will contribute the greatest to our nation (AKA the people paying for their education). I just do not believe that scores on a test meet that criterion.
You are aware that Wall St hires the top students coming out of MIT. They hire them to create the algorithms to tranche derivatives amongst other things. I would bet those students scored really high on those tests.
That's not surprising. One side effect of the pressure to increase graduation rates in a decrease in graduation standards. It's even worse now, with texting lingo and whatnot. Every year I get students who write things like "btw" and "omg" on their essays, and when I correct them on it, they literally do not know why it is wrong.
Another interesting "how things have changed" kind of fact for you: (I may have shared this already) Most schools do not even teach cursive writing anymore. Even when I was in grammar school in the late 80s/early 90s, we were taught it for just one year, and it was never enforced, so we all just went back to printing. Only two of my students still write in cursive, and I hate grading their essays, because it's hard for me to read.
Schools are also dropping "spelling" as a gradable subject after fifth grade. By then, the emphasis is on "getting it close enough for the spell checker to figure it out".
Remember Cliff Notes? Those are also old news. Now, the students watch video summaries of their novels, complete with sections about "what your teacher will ask you" and "what to talk about in an essay". Google "60 Second Recap" if you want to see one...
Marc, your post #293 makes no sense. After agreeing that anyone going to college should first be a high school grad, you ask "what does that have what to do with the price of rice in China?" HUH?
This started out as a discussion about Affirmative Action, which lead to a discussion about college admission standards.
Back in the late 1990s, while enrolled in creative writing and essay writing classes at the local community college, I was appalled at the writing skills of some of my classmates, who seemed not to know even the most basic grammar; stuff we're supposed to know before high school. - AIW
They might have HAD an agenda -- involving a GOLDMAN SACHS domination of the USA and the World. And we see how well that turned out for them. Them and the other egomaniacs in the financial industry who invested heavily in Madoff.
alugueumcarro.yolasite.com
"The Taliban, American style. All terrain vehicles, some mounted with clean cut cowboys carrying high powered weapons with their young children. Bin Laden would have surely praised these indiscreet warriors of ignorance, so insecure and uninformed, seeking a Kodak trigger moment for reasons they can't begin to understand.
If it not were for the guns and threat of violence, I would feel sorry for these lost souls who lost out in the American dream and lied to by Fox, Limbaugh, Hannity, Beck, Savage, and numerous other nut cases interested in ratings and pushing the envelope towards a real life Hunger Games.
The HBO Newsroom in eight minutes articulated the political, economic, and religious forces of the American Taliban.
http://youtu.be/yGAvwSp86hY
Enough!
Anyone graduating from High School should have the same opportunities as anyone else who graduates. Anyone who fails to graduate from High School should be eligible for special education. Anyone who fails that should be eligible for welfare and employer assistance. Can I break it down simpler than that?
Aliceinwonderland ~ Yes, I think everyone that goes on to college should first graduate from High School... And just what does that have what to do with the price of rice in China??
Marc, you don't think prospective college students should have to prove they're ready for higher ed? Really?! Because if those prospective students haven't even mastered high school skill levels, how are they going to handle higher ed? - AIW
Maybe someone should fly over the Bundy camp and drop pamphlets with details of the Ryan budget proposals and the names of all House members who have repeatedly voted yes on them. It wouldn't hurt to include details of the Senate Republicans filibuster of the Democrat's bill ending tax breaks for jobs sent overseas. Hell, might as well add the Republican refusal to beef up funding for embassy security when reqested.....that request in order to thwart a Benghazi type attack. Seems to me like the Republicans may have known about the attack ahead of time...how did they know not to fund security at this critical moment????...just mocking the Night of the Living Foxmerized on the last statement...don't get excited!
Aliceinwonderland ~ Bingo!! The only thing that should matter is the desire of the student. If he/she has applied him/herself at least to the subject matter' and in any manner wants to devote themselves they should be allowed to be... ALL THAT THEY CAN BE!!
You are right. I am so used to being told different variations of "everything wrong in the world is because of Europeans", that I see it in everything now.
I certainly can't disagree with that!!
True. But if they've been hearing their whole lives (via music, pop culture, social media, etc...) things like, "white privledge is keeping you down" or "the system is rigged against you and your parents", or even seemingly benign things like, "be yourself" or "don't change to please anybody", it makes a teacher's job that much harder.
Some degree of assimilation is necessary if you want to succeed in this country. (Cultural treatment of women, for example. Even if it's a common practice for women in your country to be considered the "property" of their fathers and then husbands, that doesn't fly here.) Even cultures that aren't from other countries, like rural Southerners or inner-city minorities, must assimilate their dialects if they want to succeed.
But, like I said, nowadays that word (assimilation) has a very negative connotation.
Marc, you are preaching to the choir. I am among the last persons you would need to convince that everyone should be entitled to a free tax-funded education. But the Affirmative Action issue isn't about money; it's about admissions requirements. Don't you think that in order to get into college, prospective students should possess certain skills already, and a certain level of literacy? Or do you think colleges & universities should just admit anyone unconditionally, regardless of any of that? - AIW
English grammar is what it is; anyone starting from another language who has half a brain will understand that. Teaching English grammar is not the same as preaching that English is superior to all other languages. Grammar is objective; value judgments (i.e. "superior" versus "inferior") are subjective. Don't underestimate your students! - AIW