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DAM -- First, you seem not to understand that I totally agree with you that students should receive a stipend for going to college that not only pays tuition and books but also for room and board and a little spending money.
I worked for a govt contractor, so I am quite aware of the quota system. I just didn't remember that it was part of AA. I also worked with a man of Latino descent. He was one of the best employees I worked with. I think without AA he may not have had that job.
It would nice if we could fine someone to measure (research) the impact on equality throughout all the economic levels before, during and after AA. I would like to the comparison of gini coefficients, ratio of top 20% to bottom 20% (the metric used by Richard Wilkerson in his book "The Spirit Level" and in the link to his TED talk I gave you before), the ratio of CEO to the median worker, etc. I would bet the inequality between the working poor and the very rich became even worse after the termination of AA.
I'm glad you bring that up. I feel like what a lot of Conservatives are really worried about with the ACA is longer wait times to see their doctors because of a huge influx of newly-insured people. Of course, they don't want to admit that, because it sounds so cold-hearted. But adding a disproportionatly larger influx of doctors, which would actually bring wait times down, would get more people on board for the Right.
You may be interested in this:
http://newsroom.ucla.edu/releases/heri-freshman-survey-242619
It's a survey of modern college students. It says that 72% of college freshmen went to college "to make more money", and 81% of college freshman said "being well-off financially" is a very important personal goal. I'd say this is pretty reflective of what I experienced in college in the late 90s/early 2000s, and what my current students see as the point of college as well.
That is, the idea of "self-actualization" or "helping society" as reasons to go to college takes a back seat to "making more money for myself."
I'm not sure if it's always been this way. People I talk to who went to college in the 60s seem to think it was different then.
Disposable warriors! These greedy corporate fascists really deserve to be run out of the country on a rail. The best way to do that legally is with Campaign Finance Reform. Let us not take our eyes off the prize!!
Health Care as a Right not as a profitable Business
For Republicans, helping the 99% to access health care is secondary to greater profits to the private corporate insurance companies and keeping the 1% in luxury. Over 50 bills have been passed by House Republicans to repeal the PPACA while ignoring bills which would scuttle “Obamacare” such as one which would open Medicare to all.
But Medicare is flawed and retains health care as a profit making business even though it may limit some costs. Profit making hospitals and exorbitant fees for specialists remain. Consider the morality and lack of compassion of profiting excessively from the unfortunate sick and injured. There is a functioning American alternative which could open health care to all and considerably reduce costs, now the highest in the world, to a more reasonable level and achieve much improved results for the nation’s health and well being. Open and expand the VA to all residents. Nationalize hospitals and health clinics by federal purchase. If the feds can afford to bail out the financial and auto industries, and flush trillions of dollars down the toilet for militarism and wars which have been questionable benefit, we can do this by rearranging priorities. Sickness or injury are greater threats than terrorism or enemy attack. We can start by providing free training to qualified and committed medical students as they do in poor Cuba. This is needed to provide service without long waiting for medical services. It is likely that this reform will lower costs drastically while providing service we Americans, the richest nation in the world, deserve. Why should America be satisfied with less?
chuckle8 ~ Duh! Where have you been my friend, under a rock? Haven't you heard of "quotas." Business given tax incentives and mandatory hiring rules for women and minorities. That is why black and hispanic women are in such demand. They also alienate their co workers because they have no skills or experience in anything other than being black and hispanic women; however, they do count as two clicks on the "quota" chart. Whooo hooo!!
chuckle8 ~ You are absolutely right, you are a lousy negotiator. What we should be asking for in addition to free education is that the government actually pays people to go to college. After all, college is hard work designed for the betterment of everyone. We pay soldiers to kill people for us, don't we? Why not pay college students to learn to be paramedics, doctors, lawyers and politicians? Don't we deserve the best?
You always ask for more than you need. That way, when you sacrifice something the other guy thinks he's getting a bargain while you are getting everything you want. The Republicans are well aware of this little fact.
chuckle8 ~ My goodness you are absolutely correct! The AA improved the economic inequality between minorities and whites. Wow! How cool! By the way, while that score was being settled what happened to the economic inequality between the working poor (middle class) and the very rich?? AA reform didn't improve that situation very much did it? In fact, that situation got much, much, much worse, didn't it?
This is precisely what happens when you take your eye off the prize. Get used to it. The powers that be love to throw out these little wedge issues to get us to fight amongst ourselves--thinking our situation is being improved--all while we are being robbed blind. The meager improvements made in the lives of all too few minorities pale in comparison with the economic losses everyone in the 99% have been subjected to in the last few decades. That is a direct result of "settling for the best we can get" and forsaking what We the People are actually entitled to--free education and free health care. We cannot sacrifice those commons on the altar of Capitalistic Greed. Until we as a people stand up for what rightfully belongs to us we will always continue to get pissed on.
I have had medical coverage for the last 55 years while I was in the army for three years and now a retired federal employee. I have an HMO which has been just great. Even with the high family option I still cannot get an appointment with a specialist and even a nurse practitioner for at least two months. If it is an emergency, I can go to urgent care at my local medical center or as a last resort to the emergency room. The VA wait times seem about normal for medical care.
I checked into the availability of VA care in California back in the 1990's. I learned that patients were ranked according to the severity of their disability. In my case I have some hearing loss from my days in boot camp before they used ear plugs. Last year I was fitted with hearing aids and checked on line to see if I could get the VA to help pay for them and I didn't want to bother them with my trivial disability. They also have an income limit of $25,000 a year for cases that have only a slight disability which was my case. I didn't press the issue and feel that the government doesn't owe me a thing.
The neotards need to grow up and help disabled veterans. I can't believe that they closed some veterans health facilities. I suppose they will blame President Obama again.
DAM -- Are you saying that Affirmative Action is being used when applying for jobs, or is that some similar program?
I am a lousy negotiator, so I am clueless if asking for the moon works. However, the situation here seems different. You are giving something away you already have to ask for the moon, and you are winding up with nothing.
You are presenting anecdotes of the problems with AA. However, while AA is active the economic inequality between minorities and white males was being reduced. When AA stopped the inequality started to increase again.
I wish I was as optimistic as Thom Hartmann, but I believe that America is much like the melting ice caps, and it has reached an irreversible point. There's just too much resistance to any change in the status quo for any reversal to happen. What Thom describes JUST for entrepreneurs is impossible with today's legislature, but combine it with the roadblocks in just about every sector of the economy, the amount of power the top 1% wields, AND with the amount of work required to even push through a small change, I don't see things getting better in this country until they become far, far worse.
Specific numbers for outsourced jobs are hard to find, because companies don't have to give that information out. The highest estimate I've seen is 10.5 million. Not good, but bringing all of those jobs back (which I support, by the way) still wouldn't be enough to employ the 12 million or so undocumented workers, and 11 million or so able-bodied-but-unemployed Americans. Although, I suppose one could argue that bringing back those manufacturing jobs would have a ripple effect and add more peripheral jobs.
I think we both agree with this statement, but draw different conclusions from it. My conclusion, if politicians are to blame and my countrymen are ignorant, is to become as individualistic as possible.
When we go to an educational institution of higher learning we attempt to prepare ourselves to contribute more to society in our lifetime. The powers that be have turned that simple truth around to sound like--society is preparing us to be able to earn more money. They try to make it sound like society is doing us a favor and therefore we owe society. That is total BS. Society would fade away and die if it wasn't for willing replacements to keep it functioning. We have to to look at education for what it really is, a necessary function in order to maintain society. It is, always has been, and always will be a very necessary part of the commons. That is what we need to insist upon and accept nothing less.
Aliceinwonderland ~ First, whenever you hand out positions because of the color of skin and not because of education, experience, skills or training you automatically "persecute" the better qualified person who doesn't get the job. Secondly, you also "persecute" the under qualified person who does get the job. You have put that person and their family in a position they are not qualified for. When that position gets phased out as it no doubt will be because of the quick advancement of technology today that person will also be phased out. (It was nice while it lasted.) Without the proper education and background that under qualified person will not be able to make the adjustment. They will be left high and dry with a ton of debt. They will lose their house and any other belongings that they charged with their phony credit. I've already seen this scenario play out many times.
I had a friend several years ago who kept applying for a job he was more than qualified for. Applying with him were mostly Mexicans who barely even spoke English, let alone have his technical skills and background. They were getting hired, my friend never even got a call back. The last time he applied he used the same application except in the box where it asks race, he said "Mexican." He got a call for an interview the next day, and was hired. The company never found out that he wasn't Mexican. They never asked for any proof. Evidently, they don't really care, they just want that box filled in on the application. So therefore folks, if the powers that be start this nonsense again, and you really want a job, that is all it takes to get it. Fill in the wrong box.
As far as why I feel violated is concerned it is because our system demands that we finance our own education. I don't know about you, but when someone over charges me for something that should be free I personally feel ripped off. When someone tries to make me go into debt for decades to pay for the same thing that should be free, I feel raped. By whom do I feel violated? By our system in general; and, in particular, by our government, educational and financial institutions.
Matt, here are the holes in your argument: (1) "Too much" labor. This is a direct consequence of raygunomics, NAFTA and the outsourcing of U.S. manufacturing jobs to foreign countries, major factors conservatives conveniently ignore. (2) Illegal immigration (primarily from Mexico). That is a direct consequence of NAFTA destroying Mexico's farm-based economy. Reverse NAFTA and I guarantee, those folks would be overjoyed not to have to tear up roots to come here to this hostile environment where they must learn another language, while endureing all that scapegoating and abuse from angry Americans who like blaming Mexican "illegals" for all their problems... problems for which American politicians are directly to blame.
The many reasons for our economic meltdown boil down to toxic trade deals, the elimination of tariffs, for-profit healthcare, student debt, so-called "Citizens United", deregulation of banks and a slew of other policies favoring corporate interests over the interests of the people. Most politicians are to blame, along with the ignoramus voters who keep them in office.
The only reason you think the state of our economy "isn't as bad" as we progressives "want" everyone to believe is because of the good fortune you've enjoyed in your own life, Matt, which thus far has insulated you and your family from the consequences of these disastrous policies. - Aliceinwonderland
My counter-argument is that there are many reasons for the current state of the economy (which isn't nearly as bad as Progressives want people to believe), and Reagan's policies are only a small factor. Too much labor because of dual-income households and illegal immigration, automation, the breakdown of the nuclear family, fewer resources, and increased demand for those resources from other countries are all also contributing factors.
When I was a retail manager, we had a small family-owned business that waxed our floors overnight once per month. That business ONLY waxed floors for the chain I worked for, and were at a different store each night. I had been told by my boss, who had been with the company for 20 years, that the chain used to have it's own floor waxing crew, but they realized they could save money by hiring that part of the business out. The guy who ran the family-owned waxing business was the same guy who used to do it when the company ran it. Once they decided to change, he became an entrepreneur, bought his own van and waxer, and got the contract from the company.
With the ACA and it's requirements for employers to insure their employees, I am surprised this type of thing isn't happening more. There are so many other parts of big business that can be spun off to smaller businesses, to stay under the threshold of having to insure your employees.
For example, a wise entrepreneur might start a business that stocks shelves for chain stores over night. (Target, for example) You could have 40 or so employees who came in and stocked the shelves for Target every night. But that company would be hired on a contract basis, which would save money for Target in the form of benefits it wouldn't have to pay, since they weren't technically their employees. Target would only need to have a handful of people working overnight to watch the outsourced stockers.
You could do this with cashiers, waitstaffs, cooks, almost anything really.
Thom while you present a good topic for discussion, you once again ignore logic to expound on your favorite biases. Tax breaks have nothing to do with entreprenureship, nor healthcare. These things are indicators of the underlying reason why small businesses are harder to open and easier closed.
Government regulation.
Since the introduction of the Great Society government regulations, taxes and red tape has been growing exponentionally. The high cost of compliance with those regulations, including forcing (sm)all businesses to provide helathcare to employees, has lowered the ability for the small business to survive much less compete with the large corporations (which are able to defray those costs over a much greater volume of business).
It is Democrat sponsored taxes and regulation, which Republicans and Regan fought, that have been siphoning the life out of the American entrepreneur. Democrat policies simply put too many barriers in the way for the average citizen to take that chance on starting new on their business. Combine that with the way in which the Democrats have fought torte reform; the citizen knows that today businesses are targeted regularly by the frivilous lawsuit, not for any wrong-doing, but simply to cash in on the high cost/reward of such lawsuits.
The result of your (Democrat) meddling in the system by placing arbitrary barriers and regulations is that you promote that which you purport to despise, the giant multi-national corporation.
There was a resurgence in entrepreneurship in the 80's when Regan took steps to 'lighten the load' on businesses. (http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/Columns/2014/05/08/Overregulation-Killing-...)
The graph in the above article shows the only periods of increased business activity is during the Regan and the GWB presidencies. If we were to graph the amount of federal regulations limiting business it would most likely be the exact opposite. (See: http://cei.org/10KC)
Regulations, and the cost of compliance with those regulations, are a hidden tax (cost of doing business) that collectively make it extrordinarily difficult to start and maintain a small business in America today.
So please, review the data logically and see what is really happening.
Dave
I read the Atlantic Monthy article about this study online yesterday. Then I began reading through the comments. The first poster began blaming the government for regulations, taxes, etc., as the culprit for small businesses problems. I think they have it mostly wrong. The big corporations, who have bought the government, and are/have been making/shaping business and trade policy for many decades are the culprit.
As my husband says, "If the little guy makes a better widget than the big guy, then the big guy won't be rich anymore and lose his/her control of the market."
And the owners of small business keep believing the rethuglican line/lie about how they are ALL for small business. STOP VOTING AGAINST YOUR INTERESTS. STOP LISTENING TO THE ONE OF THE BIGGEST LIES OUT THERE. STOP BEING WILLFULLY IGNORANT!
I hear ya, CK. Not only that the Wall Street crooks got away with it, BUT woe-be-tide anyone blowing the whistle on those sleaze bags! Life sentence without parole… maybe even without charge or trial! (Sieg heil…)
Sandlewould- it is SO nice havin' ya back, sister! Keep 'em rolling... - AIW
At the risk of sounding daft, I have to ask: what's the "Happy Persecuting" in reference to, Marc?
Yesterday I asked by whom you'd said you felt violated, and got no answer. - AIW
Ha! Well, I'm sure it does...but also, Right Wing...
FYI.. RT reporting that Biden's son just landed a cushy gig w/ Ukrainian gas giant...didn't get details...
Aliceinwonderland ~ Well, at least it worked for somebody! How can I complain?? Whatever!! All I can say is extensive educational reform for all... If that isn't the major reform for tomorrow what does it matter what is any reform for today???
Without extensive education reform for all we are all living on borrowed time. "Happy Persecuting!!"
Well Marc, having finally learned of your experience with Affirmative Action, I now can better understand where you are coming from. I may not agree; but still, you are making much more sense. I'm sure there are plenty of black & latino professionals "out there" who are grateful for the opportunities Affirmative Action availed them, and are enjoying a much better living standard as a result of such opportunities, and I'd sooner cut off my nose than take that from them. But I think it's unfortunate how AA has pitted so many well-meaning people (like you) against each other... over something we should all be entitled to. Which, ultimately, is something you and I have no trouble agreeing about: UNIVERSAL ENTITLEMENT to things like health care and education. I also agree that a "B" average in high school should be all that is required for admission into any college or university. For what it's worth... - Aliceinwonderland
Let's add the fact that not a single criminal act by Wall Street has been prosecuted after they made off with trillions. How much further right (or less left) can we go without a gun being shoved in our face?
But Sandles, was I right about RW?
chuckle8 ~ Yes! Personally it cost me two different career choices I opted for. Perhaps that was a blessing. If I were so distracted with those careers at this time I would never have the time to participate in this blog. It is what it is.
chuckle8 ~ Oh, I'm sure that it is. I'm also sure that it is easier to cut off your nose to spite your face. Is it what We the People need to do... No!! It certainly isn't, is it? Until We the People demand "comprehensive education reform" we will always be the serf voice. We will never edge closer to the worker utopia that we all envision for each other. The time has come to demand the moon. After all no negotiation has ever proven fruitful for any faction who has not initially demanded the most. Personally. as far as I am concerned, your stance and the stance of Aliceinwonderland are playing right into the hand our our oppressors.
Ask fior the Moon and at least you will receive the Earth. That is my stance on this situation.