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"Mmuolo" said about President Obama: "He is an Eisenhower GOPer not a real Progressive... the only reason he got my vote is there was a fascist running against him."
I hear ya, brother. And that's why I voted for him too. I still do believe that if fewer of us voted for Obama, opting instead for more progressive and more desirable candidates, we would have had a more fragmented progressive electorate, resulting in the worst possible outcome. Instead of a Progressive Commander & Chief, or the weak-kneed, cowardly centrist we wound up with, we'd have an ugly fascist in the White House. That's how our system is rigged, folks. Those of you who voted for the better-but-marginalized candidates can keep congratulating yourselves for being so much smarter and purer at heart than us "fear voters" and having "clean hands". But thanks to us 'fraidy cats, fascist dictator wannabes like R & R will have to wait a few more years before trying again. And try they will. - Aliceinwonderland
Johngutta: Wow! I have never really read much of Thomas Jefferson or Thomas Paine...maybe I should! By the way, there is a podcast that you might be interested in if you have itunes...called The Thomas Jefferson Hour. I have a lot of the episodes but have never actually listened to them...so many other podcasts took up much of my time...till my ipod crashed..one day, perhaps, I'll get a new one. I know I can listen to them on my computer as well...but again I have so many things that keep me busy that it is hard to fit in another.
That was an interesting Aesops Fable. Another series of Fables or Tales comes from, originally, early India...but adopted and translated into Arabic by some early Arabian..I think the Indian versions were called The Tales or Fables of Bidpai..aka Panchatantra...aka Kalila wa Dimna (the 'wa' is arabic for 'and') which is the Arabic version (but is still available in English). I searched, over the years for a version on-line and now have found one. You can download the pdf files in either English or Arabic. There is an illustration on each page and children would have no problem at all reading them. Some tales are similar to Aesops. But, in Kalila and Dimna..starting from the beginning..one tale leads into the next and the next. The end result is suppose to have taught the reader something about how to live one's life with wisdom and warnings of various traps that one should watch out for in life.
http://www.alomaria.com/
A pretty good description of Kalila and Dimna here:
http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/197204/kalila.wa.dimna.htm
About your computer crashing...I wonder if it had anything to do with the monthly (2nd tuesday) Microsoft Updates (providing of course if you are using MS and not some other Operating System). MS updates can sometimes cause problems occasionally on some computers...just a thought.
Because of free trade and flat taxes, the inflation adjusted after-tax incomes of the richest 1% have soared, while those of most Americans have been stagnant or falling for decades. As a result, the poor have turned on the very poor. This is why men like Rick Scott get elected, and help for our poorest is unpopular.
Until more Americans realize that the 1% with 20 trillion dollars are the problem, and those with nothing are not, our economic and societal problems will continue.
I agree with you Thom! Let's get this done. The president should lead the way. We gave him permission to be a leader. No, we require that he lead this term.
The democrats and the president should hold firm. They should not negotiate. We should push them and we should push the people who voted for the republicans.
I wonder why anyone cares what the rating companies do to the USA credit rating. Look at how accurate they were with AIG and all the other companies that we had to bail out. It's just a political ploy.
The president makes me sad: he signed the "Patriot Act." He still has Gitmo. He still actively pursues American citizens and has them kidnapped, tortued and killed, all without abiding by the constitution. He used Drones more than ever, killing innocents, causing terrible injuries and never admitting it. He has made deals with multinational corporations and now the worse trade pact in the history of our country is being negotiated in secret.
Thom, when you say, "Tag, you're it," I don't want to be it anymore. Maybe I need a break.
Reply to #62
All of those conditions exist because predatory 'businessmen' bribe lawmakers with campaign contributions and promises of retirement jobs paying millions a year in return for votes for laws that drive down wages.
There is only one way to end the buying of laws by predators; - entirely publc financing of lawmakers' campaigns and retirements.
Obama blew it----the very best deal he would ever get was going off the cliff in January and then negotiating.
He is doing this bit by bit and he will screw it up just like last time.
He is an Eisenhower GOPer Not a real Progressive....the only reason he got my vote is there was a fascist running against him.
Palindromedary,
The constant theme in this venue is to rage against the "haves", lament the plight of the poor downtrodden working class and to focus on the conspiracy between the Koch Brothers and their hirlings in congress and on K Street to "do us out of what's rightfully ours". But to those of us educated in another time, who have read Zinn, Chomsky and others, there is a more salient problem; the fact that, as a society, we have allowed ourselves to be stripped of our all important capacity for "critical thinking". If Howard Zinn's "People's History" doesn't convince any thinking person that the human condition has always driven the greed and inequity in this country, nothing will (I don't know how many copies of this book I've given away). What has changed, however, is the willingness of a society to slip into the comforting arms of instant gratification, easy creature comforts, and most of all, to avoid the unpleasantness of questioning authority. We've done it to ourselves. The most powerful weapon we have at our disposal is to reach out to the younger generations and do the best we can to open their eyes. Griping about the status quo is cathartic, but futile.
Another computer error. This site is not working properly.
THERE'S NO WONDER W.W.T.J.D.
...declare todays destructive corporate government an Enemy of the State, dismantle - once again - the banking system, and shame us all for being so foolish for not exercising our RIGHT to alter or abolish a government that is destructive of an EQUAL RIGHT to LIFE, LIBERTY, and THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS.
Thomas Jefferson with an assault riffle and a full metal jacket...Now there's a second coming!
Damn, another computer error. And no wonder, it's getting light outside; - I worked on this all night!
Oops; computer error.
Wow !! I wanted to join this discussion yesterday, but now I'm glad that I couldn't. I just read the whole debate a couple of times, and Palin's defense of progressive taxation, in real time and against strong opponents, was absolutely amazing; - Great job Palin !!!
But some additional background information on 'my' progressive tax plan that started the debate is necessary because, quite obviously, it isn't my plan; I 'borrowed' most of the ideas, - many of them from Thomas Jefferson:
Jefferson, who was serving as ambassador to France during the writing of our Constitution, personally witnessed the concentration of wealth that plutocratic government created and perpetuated in Europe, and condemned it in his writings: "they have divided their nations into two classes, wolves and sheep. I can apply no milder term to the governments of Europe, and to the general prey of the rich on the poor."
This experience led Jefferson to suggest a very important and proper role for democratic government; - to redistribute wealth:
" I am conscious that an equal division of property [ wealth ] is impracticable. But the consequences of this enormous inequality [ the result of plutocratic government ] producing so much misery to the bulk of mankind, legislators cannot invent too many devices for subdividing property."
Which led Jefferson to suggest a way for government to redistribute wealth:
" Another means of silently lessening the inequality of property is to exempt all from taxation below a certain point, and to tax the higher portions of property in geometrical progression as they rise. "
With what goal in mind? In his book "Rights of Man", Thomas Paine, a favorite of Jefferson, suggested a twenty to one wealth ratio between the richest and poorest productive members of a society. But, since millions of working Americans have a net worth of nothing, a twenty to one ratio between the richest and the average of all productive members is more reasonable.
Why is redistribution of wealth by government necessary? The best answer I have ever seen was written by a Greek named Aesop over 2500 years ago:
" A lion and other animals formed a corporation to provide food. The fox made the plans; the birds found the food; the dogs tracked it down; the wolves dispatched it; the oxen carried it back; and the lion divided it. After he divided it the lion took one share of the meat for himself because he was their leader, and he took the rest because he was the king of the beasts. The sinews and bones were all that he left. "
The wisdom of this ancient fable still applies today. Those at the top of a corporation decide the value of every member's contribution, including their own. And, like Aesop's predatory lion, they usually decide that they "earned" and should get a lion's share of the profits.
Because of this flaw in the nature of humans, high tax rates on the rich and low on the poor are absolutely necessary to recover property unfairly taken by predators and return it to the producers.
Okay -- another matter that shouldn't be forgotten, re Chuck Hagel, from Wikipedia:
"In 1996, Hagel ran for the open US Senate seat created by the retirement of Democrat J. James Exon. Hagel's opponent was Ben Nelson, then the sitting Governor of Nebraska. Hagel won and became the first Republican in twenty-four years to win a Senate seat in Nebraska. Six years later in 2002, Hagel overwhelmingly won re-election with over 83% of the vote, the largest margin of victory in any statewide race in Nebraska history."
WAS the voting done on his former company's machines?
Have you talked to Brad Friedman of The Brad Blog about this? If there is something there, please discuss on your show. Thanks!!
(Or are we ignoring the issue because certain Republicans don't like him?)
"Greed of the corparations came first"
Many believe that if they work "hard" they will get ahead and become well off.
Try telling that to retail stores clerks who are not hired full time because the employer does not want to pay benefits, whose wages are low with no hope of a living wage, and many working two jobs to get by. Try telling that to people in many manufacuturing positions whose companies have to compete with Chinease wages, "temporary" workers who work over a year, jobs being "out sourced".
I have personal experience working as a clerk in retail, and as an assembler of electronics. I can tell you that if you can find a job with mediocere wages, full time work, and regular benefits you are doing well. Getting ahead means getting an education that you can only afford with student loans you will pay for probably the rest of your life, because so many "colleges" are ripping you off, and you probably will not have any grants or scholarships to fully fund your education. Try looking for a scholarship. How do you sort out the scam ones from what may be a real one? Many "colleges" are offering $1,000 scholarships just to get you in the door and rip you off.
Please don't abandon your campaign to get rid of billionaires -- what happened to the twitter hash tag? We need to unify and educate and share information. We need to share your video clips together with your hash tag.
Also we need a twitter tag for your show -- like Chris Hayes has us #uppers which trends. #ThomHartmann exists but it is too long. #Thom and #Hartmann seem to exist for other things but maybe we could reclaim it. Perhaps this is a discussion that should be had on the message boards.
Happiness in abundance in this new year -- and always.
Golly gee GLOBAL a world without liars and theives!?!?Whatever will we do???
How about a world without poor people, or a world without homless families, or a world without hunger, or a world without wars, etc...
Possable??? No...Not while the world is full of greedy selfrighteous assholes!
...but I can dream, can't I?
(Con't) The fate of the world is at your mercy. Extreme as this may sound, we are living in extreme times. What you are dealing with is a Congress taken over by terrorists & thugs, beholden only to a narrow, self-serving agenda. They're just a pack of thieves, more than willing to wreak havoc on this country and the world if they don't get their way. This latest stunt of theirs, refusing to raise the debt ceiling, is an act of financial terrorism. So determined are they to rob our Social Security Trust Fund, they are holding the entire world hostage. So awful are the potential consequences of their deadly game, they might as well be holding guns to our heads. If this country doesn't pay its debt, the world economy will collapse and life as we know it is over. So what side are you on, Mr. President? Is this the "change" we're supposed to "believe" in?
You are the only person who can stop these thieving predators. Please stop them, before it is too late.
- Aliceinwonderland
Maybe this is an act of futility, but for what it's worth- I decided to write the president this evening. Tomorrow I'll be sending what follows, hand written:
With due respect, President Obama, I implore you to stand firm on raising that debt ceiling. Surely as a constitutional scholar, you must know how illegal it is, what the Republicans are doing. The stakes are so high, there's no room for error. You can't negotiate with psychopaths & terrorists; it's always their way or the highway. You've got to exercise the powers availed you as president, by the 14th Amendment, to ensure this basic obligation is fulfilled with or without Congressional support. Failing to do so, you would subject everyone on the planet to a level of chaos & catastrophe perhaps never before seen. Is this the legacy you wish to leave behind, after two terms as our president? (Con't)
DAnneMarc: Wow! How precocious! 3 years old and you were already trying to solve the world's problems! I understand, from my dad, that my special talents at about that age, or maybe younger, was that I had a knack of breaking out of my crib. He said that the crib was very well built and sturdy but I'd shake it so hard that he thought it would fall apart. A couple years later, not yet in school, I had chased several kids up a tree. They were several years older. Too bad they didn't have YouTube back then...maybe that tree scene would have gone viral. But, I don't remember any of it. Sometimes, I'm lucky if I remember yesterday or even what I ate for breakfast this morning. But, occasionally, some things from the distant past pops out...like last week.;-}
DAnneMarc: But having said that...I believe that you had some good ideas except I don't know how one would get a nation to change it's practice of familial isolationism. Seems no one wants to hang around for very long listening to the ravings of the geriatric set.. If they wanted to do that...they'd be reading many of us right here on this blog..I think you are much younger though...at least you still have a job...good going..hang in there! The younger set are more into much shorter missives with code words like OMG and LMAO. Good thing too..they'd get arthritis in their fingers at a much younger age trying to text on those tiny buttons...and we don't even know how it will affect their eyesight... squinting to read those tiny words...or attempted words...nobody's perfect...even though I'm sure they all think they are.
And I'm all for our government living up to it's obligations and promises in Social Security and Medicare. Cut Pentagon spending, a whole bunch.
But I disagree with the idea of giving tax breaks to the rich so that they can hire mercenaries to fight their wars. They are already pretty much doing just that now. I think we should abolish mercenary armies. Tell Blackwater or Xe or whatever name they are using now to disband...cease and desist. And all those other MIC leaches to stop in their slime tracks...poof...gone...history.
On taxes, I believe there should be a gradual progressive income tax...ie: on increments of say $1,000 starting at somewhere above poverty level....be taxed a fraction of a percent for each $1000 per year so that the fractions add up so that the more you earn, the more you pay. I also believe that there should be an upper limit to what a person can earn. Say, $1billion...and above that will all go to a government controlled charity as determined by the voters.
No one will ever be able to spend $1billion in their lifetime. And most of these people can either retire...or keep working because they are driven by something that is greater than money alone. They would be praised as saints rather than the crooks they are believed to be today. And the billion could be any other number that seems right to most people...more or less.
And yes, we need to get the big money out of politics...problem is how do we do all of this? It's one thing to think of doing these things and another to get them implemented.
I think many people are finally coming to the realization that their votes don't count...really..and that making phone calls or writing emails to our government officials don't count either. What are they really voting for? Really? We have a corrupt system and trying to make changes to that system is futile. It is going to take something beyond politics as usual to effect real change...unfortunately.
It's scarey for sure...but it's going to happen...eventually, if those in power don't relent and change. I'm pretty much of a pacifist myself, even though I won't hesitate to defend myself if attacked. But, if more people really realized just what they were about to fight for....they wouldn't even join the armed forces anymore.. unless they were starving..it sure isn't for our freedoms or our liberty or democracy....those are all empty words uttered by propagandists working for the criminal system we currently live in.
Many of our service people come to realize, after the fact, what it is or isn't all about and, unfortunately, they often commit suicide..or turn to drugs..something they don't like to even mention in the major news media.
Yes! I believe those psychopathic freaks are dangerous enough to trash the economy of the entire world if they don't get their way. Undoubtedly they are still furious that Obama was re-elected, and eager to punish us any way they can. Makes me crazy how Obama keeps dropping the ball, caving in to the bastards again and again while the situation grows more dire by the hour. All I can say is, I'd rather be watching this movie than living through it. - Aliceinwonderland
Your insights and cautions about 'electronic Democracy' are very valid. However, I assure you I've spent a lot of time envisioning this system--since I was 3 years old to be specific. I am aware of the technical dangers as well as the social benefits. I don't necessarily believe we may be ready now for such a system; however, I fully believe in my heart and soul that such a system is lurking in our future. It is time we grab the bull by the horns and make it so!
Remember, where there is a will there is a way!
Oh, good, what a relief, from the way it sounded I thought you were going to do something physical that would wind up in the papers. Refer to: #40.
Your proposal..#53 looked like it took a lot of thought and effort to write and it is great that you have thought so much about it. But from my perspective it doesn't seem like much of anything will deter the course that we are are about to experience.
One idea that had been backed up by some very wealthy people who paid and sent out petitioners to all the malls and other public places failed in their efforts...thank goodness. I say that because I believe that they were just using us, making untrue statements about their real intentions.
Americans Elect made themselves sound like they were going to usher in a new way of doing things too..using computers and on-line voters to select and vote for the third party candidate that would "represent the people".
The fact that they were backed by "invisible" wealthy financiers made the whole thing stink. All of the rhetoric in the fliers and on their web site promised that this new way, and the president they helped put into office, would change everything in favor of the people.
They played upon the discontent of both the Republicans and the Democrats and even got my signature until I began to have doubts and started to investigate what they were all about. You can do a Google Search on Americans Elect and on their founder, Peter Ackerman, if you are interested. Remember Michael Milken and the Savings and Loan scandals? Ackerman got rich off from all of this and was known as Michael Milken's right hand man. And if you really do some deeper investigations you may find that he may be involved in organizations that sound like they are benevolent but, in fact, may be involved in assisting organizations like the CIA overthrow other governments...by subversion from within those countries.
Anyway, your idea of using computers for creating or voting for various laws, etc.: We can't even rely on electronic voting machines. And despite the fact that many people use computers for home banking, many are not aware of just how often people's bank accounts are compromised by hackers...and banks are supposed to be the safest on-line transactions.
All one has to do is search for all of the instances of hackers breaking into accounts. The news media...at the behest of the banksters, no doubt...don't want it widely known just how unsafe it is to do on-line banking. Sure they have the best encryption, ostensibly, but do the bank customers know if their computers are key-stroke logger free? No viruses or trojans installed with rootkits that evade detection?
And what about the certificates of authority (CA) that are used for verifying ones identity for encryption? Google Diginotar..a company that was compromised by a hacker who stole all of the CAs that could be used to spoof identities and decrypt transactions. And there were others as well. Man in the middle attacks are also done to intercept identities, capture passwords, even though they are encrypted.
I went to a web site, after I learned of it from Steve Gibson's Security Now podcast, called Pastebin.com which is a web site where anyone can post information anonymously. Mostly programmers can post a software program they've just created to share with others, or any number of other things...even some porn. This web site was often used by hackers to post advertisements that they wanted to sell info on bank accounts. They listed the names, banks, bank account numbers, and the balances..but would sell the passwords to anyone who wanted to buy them. There were thousands of them. And I saw this a number of times with all different bank accounts. Credit cards were also listed. I think this web site finally cracked down on this practice. 4chan.org is another rather rogue web site..although I've never seen any bank accounts like on pastebin.com
My Proposal
Thom, Louise, Ken, Palindromedary, and fellow readers, I have composed a 7 part solution to the current political, economic and social crisis that I believe is the only solvent way to cure our National woos. Here it is:
1. Thom and Louise, please ban the words "Liberal" and "Conservative" from this Live Blog. To me they are dirty words! They do nothing but to sow discord and arouse negative emotions. I for one disagree with far too many people to be categorized as agreeing with any group. I find these references to be both limiting, insulting, and demeaning.
2. We must stand up immediately and make it very clear to our representatives that we will accept no solution that reduces our precious social programs. The time has come for us to draw a line in the sand. My recommendation is for everyone tomorrow to call their representative and the President of the United States and demand that not one cent be cut from Social Security or Medicare no matter what. Tell them We The People are willing to accept any consequences for the action; and will support our representatives 100%. In addition, threaten them that without their cooperation you will never again vote for them or anyone else in their party. The time has come for We The People to seriously consider another party in our elections. Think of this occasion as an opportunity to empower such an option and to make it clear to our representatives that we have had it.
3. My father at his highest earning capacity was taxed at about 50%. I know because he complained about it frequently. His disdain however never interfered with his willingness to accept every hour of overtime that came his way. If he didn't mind paying his fair share than why should anyone earning 1000 times more than he did? I believe this is a reasonable amount to request our highest wage earners to pay in taxes. Let's all consider a compromise where we can mandate that taxes for any income bracket will never exceed this amount.
4. Cuts in spending? The reasonable question that is being averted is how can we make appropriate spending cuts to reduce waste. I say Social Security and Medicare do not qualify as waste. These programs are essential. The Defense Budget on the other hand is pure waste. We The People have no obligation or pressing need to maintain military bases or fighting forces anywhere on the planet except for the United States of America. "Fight them there so they won't come here"? Are you serious? Personally, I can't speak for Ken, but I'd be surprised if he would fear fighting any opponent with a home field advantage. Myself, though a pacifist, would be first in line to take on such a threat. I'm sure I'm not alone. The popular touted rational is that these expenditures are necessary for National Security. The fact of the matter is that these expenditures are necessary to protect our National Interests. Our National Interests are nothing more than the interests of our National Corporations that happen to exist in our Nation. We need to cut off this hand-out to the Corporations. Not only is it draining our national capital; but it is also plunging our Nation into enormous dept, soiling our reputation around the world, and costing the lives of our future citizens. As the Uncle of two members of our National security forces I demand that our Leaders reassess our Military policy and make reasonable cuts in Defense spending immediately! Give the Rich the break in taxes I mentioned and the opportunity to invest the windfall in hiring their own Mercenaries to protect their own Corporate interest. No more American lives or dollars for foreign oil fields or gas pipelines!
5. When I was in college my dream was to utilize my talents to create my own factory manufacturing products; and, providing a decent income for many happy American families. I envisioned my ideas resolving problems and making life easier for people all over the world. "Industrial Flight" as it was called back then, and later NAFTA and Free Trade made that dream unattainable. These obstacles are also making balancing the budget and paying off our debt unattainable. We must remove these enemies to the American Dream and reinstate our Tariffs on foreign goods. We need to revive our GDP, and eliminate the threat of cheep foreign imported goods by reinstating our import taxes with a vengeance!
6. Social Cohesion in the American Family is missing and must be restored to resolve many preventable social tragedies. Small Agricultural societies have strong social cohesion within the family unit due to interdependence. This interdependence is missing in large Industrial societies who have weak social cohesion within the small family unit because of a lack of any social cohesion. Social cohesion is the bonds that represent not only love; but, respect, responsibility, reliability, and support. It's existence is critical in building self esteem, self respect, and self reliance. I feel that we can augment our small loosely tied family structures to resemble the Agricultural Model by modifying our Educational Institution. Children at a young age must be exposed to real world earning experiences to build their self esteem as well as develop the social cohesion of their families. I know that child labor is taboo in the United States at this time and I do not advocate bringing back child sweat shops. However, student apprenticeship programs need to be a part of our School agenda. In addition, children participated need to earn school credits as well as cash in order to accomplish this objective. This way children can help support their family's, learn the value of a dollar, and earn their own self esteem at a young age. They can help our nation eliminate its dependence on illegal foreign labor and build their self respect at the same time. It worked in my father's generation, and it can work now!
7. Finally, Democracy as we know it needs to evolve. People such as ourselves, at home with computers and internet connections need to have the ability to engage the political process on the official level. We need to be able to not only voice our opinions on line; but also to be able to effect legislation composition and enactment into law. To me, this is the very essence of Democracy--the ability of the populous to enact and enforce law as it sees fit with as little intermediary influence as possible. I purpose an Amendment to the Constitution that would allow any citizen with an internet connection to purpose any law they see fit. That law would be posted on line and if it received enough votes would be subjected to a populous vote and become law if a majority sees fit. This proposal would eliminate the need for a Congress, an Executive branch of government; as well as Public unrest and redress. The representatives would be the people themselves and the Executive would be the instantaneous electronic vote of all the people. To me, this is the ideal model of Democracy!
I ask your help in bringing about these necessary and essential evolutionary changes.
Thank you!
Sincerely,
DAnneMarc