The best court for politicians who lie is the court of public opinion. It is up to us to impose justice. We cannot outsource our responsibilities. Politics mirrors the public square. Each one of us must look in that mirror and resolve to longer tolerate dishonesty, in our own dealings, and in the dealings of our public figures and servants. Holding office is a special honor and responsibility. It's high time we treated it that way. Yes, the lying by politicians might sometimes be a judicial matter, but, it should always be the publics ultimate responsibility, regardless.
I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will SUPPORT and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter: So help me God.
DDAY, no trip with TCL, I've been busy getting a new job (two actually).
So anyone have an answer for my question? Is there some procedure that might already exist and I'm not aware of it? I just wonder why something that seems like such an oversight is not being demanded.
I'd like to propose that any politician that has been caught knowingly lying must give up their office and never allowed to hold office again.
I know, I know... snowballs chance and all that... but a can wish can't I.
Politicians take an oath to uphold the laws whereas a person testifying in court takes an oath to tell the truth. So, politicians agree to support but not abide.
Your point that the Right's moral superiority is disingenuous is spot on. They have coopted the tenets of the truly religious to sway their favor and votes. The scary part is this religious front has begun putting up their own candidates who do hold these religious views.
I know this is a bit off topic, but I want to write it anyway.
Why is it that its illegal for a witness in court to lie (ie perjury), but there is no legal recourse when a politician knowingly lies?
I know some might say, it is grounds for impeachment, but I really can't see why it shouldn't be a more open procedure that citizen groups could use to go after lying politicians.
The fundamentalists and the conservative right have sought to be the arbiters of public morality and values for some time now. Whether it is reproductive rights or sexual preference, there has been nothing too personal, private, or sovereign to be off limits for their pronouncements of judgment. The individual liberties of self determination and free will are sacrificed to the ideological tenets of unfettered capitalism and religious dogma. I believe that the Right's true allegiance to religious piety is less sincere and fundamental, otherwise there would be much more emphasis on being honest and truthful. Lying and shading the truth have become both science and art as mastered by the Right. What is lying, but, stealing the truth? Nine out of the Ten Commandments concern theft. Bearing false witness is given prominent billing except for by the Republican Right-wing.
That people will lie and cheat to achieve there selfish goals is nothing new in history. What sets this time apart is threefold: First, the organized, scientifically crafted, effort to manipulate or deceive as practiced by organizations like The Heritage Foundation. Secondly, The Internet and other forms of information technology which disseminates massively and universally. Finally, and most concerning to me, is the dumbing down of public tolerance of falsehoods and other perfidies. Why do we tolerate so much dishonesty? Why isn't telling a lie more shameful? Why do we punish liars so infrequently and in such an arbitrary way? John Edwards cheats on his cancer afflicted wife and he is done...but John McCain and Newt Gingrich cheat on their sick wives and are still going strong, Why? Howard Dean is recorded making a silly "rebel yell" and he is toast, while David Vitter is discovered visiting prostitutes who dress him in diapers as per his requests, and he is forgiven with standing ovations from his fellow Republican senators.
Before we permit our opponents to lecture us on ethics and morality again, we should insist first on zero tolerance for lies or "half-truths" either. This is a ultimatum that only the people as a whole can issue. While the political right is primarily responsible, the Democratic Party has lost it's authority to cast stones. Too many in positions of power and fallen prey to the temptations of the influence of money to be able to avoid being called a hypocrite if they point fingers. Until the majority of the voting public no longer tolerates lying and extracts a toll for doing so by their elected representatives and others, this insanity will continue and little of importance will be accomplished. Endless debate, will be our fate, with little increase in understanding, because, we cannot even agree on rational truth as being the reasonable standard on which we all can agree. This a perfect environment for the rise of mutant forms like Sarah Palin, Michele Bachmann, Glen Beck and other oddities. They can only survive and flourish in an environment where lying has been dumbed down. Who's running this zoo?
Jefferson said it better: "All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent."
They are constantly saying the Democratic Party needs 60 votes to pass a bill. What short memories we have. What I mean is the Repuke's used to yell scream about an "up and down vote" to confirm Roberts and Alito. Why doesn't the Democratic Party use the same tactics? The Repuke's even buzzed the "Nuclear Option" too.
Finally for a thought: 1(One) Trillion Dollars is the equivalent of having 1(One) Million Millionaires.
I quite agree with you - the news media has never been interested in fair. All they're interested in is (and I borrow from Michael Douglas' speech in "The American President) "...making you afraid of it and telling you who's to blame for it." Of course, that didn't actually refer to the media itself, but I think it still applies.
The reason is simple - they're manufacturing fewer cars. NUMMI represented excess production for them. They needed to make less, and sell more of what they were making.
SHOULD GM be held completely blameless inthe shutdown of this plant? Probably not - it IS, as you point out, unfair to Toyota to lay the blame entirely at their door. Since when has the news media been interested in "fair"?
One penny out of every dollar spent in the United States of America in 2009 went for salaries and bonuses at Wall Street firms, prompting demands for a new federal holiday.
"We awarded ourselves $140 Billion in salary and bonusses in 2009," explained one investment banker, "That's about 1 percent of the $14 Trillion U.S. GDP. An accomplishment like that deserves a federal holiday. We call it 'A Penny for Your Banker Day!'"
Pundits cheered this accomplishment, "Every time you buy a 99 cent hamburger, what happens to that other penny?" one asked. "Don't worry, it's not lost! One way or another, it will end up safely in the pocket of a Wall Street banker!
"For example, if you spend $100 on groceries, a dollar of that goes through a complicated network of financial finagling to the people who helped collapse the economy. If you spend $10,000 on a used car, that's $100 for Wall Street - almost enough for a champagne lunch or half an hour with a moderately-priced hooker. If George Washington gets a holiday for something he did over two hundred years ago, why shouldn't Wall Street bankers get a holiday for something they're doing right now?"
Congress is expected to act quickly on the proposal. "There's an election in November," said one campaign manager, "And we all know that a happy Wall Street banker is a generous Wall Street Banker!"
And the reason GM didn't assign the manufacture of one of continuing car lines to the Nummi plant is...? Please don't get me wrong, I'm not against the workers there. But why just blame Toyota while, apparently, holding GM blameless? It's a bit too close to the return of the Japan-bashing from the early 1990's for my comfort.
I propose that we start using a more accurate term to describe the corporate Republicans: Corporate Royalists. (Unfortunately, this applies as well to many Democrats as well.)
Like the Royalists of old, they prefer the authority of a non-democratic elite to that of the people. Some conflate Corporations with Religion to make their allegience to an "Ultimate Authority." They are much more comfortable with Corporate Religious leaders, those who make millions of dollars and have mammoth congregations, than they are with smaller, service oriented church leaders. (Think of their hatred of Aristiede—and Jimmy Carter.)
The BIGGEST IRONY of the Supreme Court Ruling is: while on the one hand, so many scream and yell in fear that an immigrant may come into the US and get a $5 meal, a $25 Vaccine, or even a job, there is not a peep from them when the opening widens for foreign corps to sail in- under the guise of corporate "personhood" - and lay claim to our entire government and our economy. Wake up America ! Focusing on the little distractions lets the bigger storm grow until IT is too big to fail in its purpose.
In Federalist 78,Alexander argues that the judiciary is the least dangerous branch to democracy, and that courts are the true defender of the will of the people....would he feel the same today?
In case you hadn't noticed, GM did not simply shut down production of the Pontiac Vibe at the NUMMI plant - they've shut down the entire Pontiac division. The Pontiac brand name is now extinct!
Part of GM's problem was that they were spread too thin - too many divisions with insufficient differentiation, cutting into one another's market segments. It was an unsustainable situation. Chevy & Caddy seem fairly solid, but I think the jury may still be out regarding whether or not Buick can survive over the long haul.
PLEASE do not propogate the myth of the Democratic Supermajority - we never REALLY had one. With DINOs like LIEberman, Nelson, Lincoln and the like, we could never depend on 60 votes for ANY item on the progressive agenda.
The "Democrat Supermajority" was just another piece of FOX-speak, used to demonstrate that even though we had the numbers, we were still incapable of leadership. Helping them spread that meme does not advance any progressive cause.
Well Thom, I thought your interview with Mr. Lopez was rather superficial. You were intent on attacking the Japanese manufacturer Toyota while leaving out the fact that GM (who jointly operated the plant with Toyota) pulled the manufacturing of the Pontiac Vibe out of the plant last June. Where's your criticism of GM for leaving pulling out of that plant - leaving it for Toyota, apparently, to be criticized for pulling the one to turn out the last lights? Toyota might have benefited the most from Cash For Clunkers, but GM got bailed out by us taxpayers. I don't recall you criticizing GM for leaving that plant, did you?
Also, apparently, the land that plant is sitting on is being eyed by major league baseball's Oakland Athletics franchise.
I see the mob lawyer mayor of las vegas says Obama is not welcome in his town because Obama mentioned vegas as someplace you would not go if you were struggling in this economy.Well mob lawyer mayor Goldman got offended.Maybe he should be working with the other politicians to see what other kind of jobs they can get in there so they are not dependent on casinos.They got greedy with the building in vegas and now that is hurting.Really that is all they have casinos and building and they have abused it all.
I see your Marx quote and raise you a quote from Bakunin!
"Socialism Is Justice...Socialism is justice. When we speak of justice, we understand thereby not the justice contained in the Codes and in Roman jurisprudence - which were based to a great extent upon facts of violence achieved by force, violence consecrated by time and by the benedictions of some church or other (Christian or pagan), and as such accepted as absolute principles, from which all law is to be deduced by a process of logical reasoning - no, we speak of that justice which is based solely upon human conscience, the justice to be found in the consciousness of every man - even in that of children - and which can be expressed in a single word: equity.
This universal justice which, owing to conquests by force and religious influences, has never yet prevailed in the political or juridical or economic worlds, should become the basis of the new world. Without it there can be neither liberty, nor republic, nor prosperity, nor peace. It then must govern our resolutions in order that we work effectively toward the establishment of peace. And this justice urges us to take upon ourselves the defense of the interests of the terribly maltreated people and demand their economic and social emancipation along with political freedom. " - Mikhail Bakunin
The best court for politicians who lie is the court of public opinion. It is up to us to impose justice. We cannot outsource our responsibilities. Politics mirrors the public square. Each one of us must look in that mirror and resolve to longer tolerate dishonesty, in our own dealings, and in the dealings of our public figures and servants. Holding office is a special honor and responsibility. It's high time we treated it that way. Yes, the lying by politicians might sometimes be a judicial matter, but, it should always be the publics ultimate responsibility, regardless.
Well an Oath your not obliged to abide, is meaningless. So how do we the people make this oath obligatory?
And not just for Congress, I want to see it enacted for all public offices.
Oath of Office for Congress
I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will SUPPORT and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter: So help me God.
Not obliged to abide.
DDAY, no trip with TCL, I've been busy getting a new job (two actually).
So anyone have an answer for my question? Is there some procedure that might already exist and I'm not aware of it? I just wonder why something that seems like such an oversight is not being demanded.
I'd like to propose that any politician that has been caught knowingly lying must give up their office and never allowed to hold office again.
I know, I know... snowballs chance and all that... but a can wish can't I.
Nels
Politicians take an oath to uphold the laws whereas a person testifying in court takes an oath to tell the truth. So, politicians agree to support but not abide.
@ Nels
Your comments seem to be on topic as far as I'm concerned!
BTW, good to see you here. I thought you might be off hiking the Appalachian Trail with TCL. Good to know you resisted her siren call. :-)
DDay
Your point that the Right's moral superiority is disingenuous is spot on. They have coopted the tenets of the truly religious to sway their favor and votes. The scary part is this religious front has begun putting up their own candidates who do hold these religious views.
I know this is a bit off topic, but I want to write it anyway.
Why is it that its illegal for a witness in court to lie (ie perjury), but there is no legal recourse when a politician knowingly lies?
I know some might say, it is grounds for impeachment, but I really can't see why it shouldn't be a more open procedure that citizen groups could use to go after lying politicians.
s.b. have fallen prey.... not...and fallen prey. sorry
The North American Missle Defense had another failed test this week and we keep pumping more money into this cow.
The fundamentalists and the conservative right have sought to be the arbiters of public morality and values for some time now. Whether it is reproductive rights or sexual preference, there has been nothing too personal, private, or sovereign to be off limits for their pronouncements of judgment. The individual liberties of self determination and free will are sacrificed to the ideological tenets of unfettered capitalism and religious dogma. I believe that the Right's true allegiance to religious piety is less sincere and fundamental, otherwise there would be much more emphasis on being honest and truthful. Lying and shading the truth have become both science and art as mastered by the Right. What is lying, but, stealing the truth? Nine out of the Ten Commandments concern theft. Bearing false witness is given prominent billing except for by the Republican Right-wing.
That people will lie and cheat to achieve there selfish goals is nothing new in history. What sets this time apart is threefold: First, the organized, scientifically crafted, effort to manipulate or deceive as practiced by organizations like The Heritage Foundation. Secondly, The Internet and other forms of information technology which disseminates massively and universally. Finally, and most concerning to me, is the dumbing down of public tolerance of falsehoods and other perfidies. Why do we tolerate so much dishonesty? Why isn't telling a lie more shameful? Why do we punish liars so infrequently and in such an arbitrary way? John Edwards cheats on his cancer afflicted wife and he is done...but John McCain and Newt Gingrich cheat on their sick wives and are still going strong, Why? Howard Dean is recorded making a silly "rebel yell" and he is toast, while David Vitter is discovered visiting prostitutes who dress him in diapers as per his requests, and he is forgiven with standing ovations from his fellow Republican senators.
Before we permit our opponents to lecture us on ethics and morality again, we should insist first on zero tolerance for lies or "half-truths" either. This is a ultimatum that only the people as a whole can issue. While the political right is primarily responsible, the Democratic Party has lost it's authority to cast stones. Too many in positions of power and fallen prey to the temptations of the influence of money to be able to avoid being called a hypocrite if they point fingers. Until the majority of the voting public no longer tolerates lying and extracts a toll for doing so by their elected representatives and others, this insanity will continue and little of importance will be accomplished. Endless debate, will be our fate, with little increase in understanding, because, we cannot even agree on rational truth as being the reasonable standard on which we all can agree. This a perfect environment for the rise of mutant forms like Sarah Palin, Michele Bachmann, Glen Beck and other oddities. They can only survive and flourish in an environment where lying has been dumbed down. Who's running this zoo?
Jefferson said it better: "All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent."
They are constantly saying the Democratic Party needs 60 votes to pass a bill. What short memories we have. What I mean is the Repuke's used to yell scream about an "up and down vote" to confirm Roberts and Alito. Why doesn't the Democratic Party use the same tactics? The Repuke's even buzzed the "Nuclear Option" too.
Finally for a thought: 1(One) Trillion Dollars is the equivalent of having 1(One) Million Millionaires.
@mstaggerlee
I quite agree with you - the news media has never been interested in fair. All they're interested in is (and I borrow from Michael Douglas' speech in "The American President) "...making you afraid of it and telling you who's to blame for it." Of course, that didn't actually refer to the media itself, but I think it still applies.
@9 -
The reason is simple - they're manufacturing fewer cars. NUMMI represented excess production for them. They needed to make less, and sell more of what they were making.
SHOULD GM be held completely blameless inthe shutdown of this plant? Probably not - it IS, as you point out, unfair to Toyota to lay the blame entirely at their door. Since when has the news media been interested in "fair"?
'A Penny for Your Banker Holiday' Proposed!
One penny out of every dollar spent in the United States of America in 2009 went for salaries and bonuses at Wall Street firms, prompting demands for a new federal holiday.
"We awarded ourselves $140 Billion in salary and bonusses in 2009," explained one investment banker, "That's about 1 percent of the $14 Trillion U.S. GDP. An accomplishment like that deserves a federal holiday. We call it 'A Penny for Your Banker Day!'"
Pundits cheered this accomplishment, "Every time you buy a 99 cent hamburger, what happens to that other penny?" one asked. "Don't worry, it's not lost! One way or another, it will end up safely in the pocket of a Wall Street banker!
"For example, if you spend $100 on groceries, a dollar of that goes through a complicated network of financial finagling to the people who helped collapse the economy. If you spend $10,000 on a used car, that's $100 for Wall Street - almost enough for a champagne lunch or half an hour with a moderately-priced hooker. If George Washington gets a holiday for something he did over two hundred years ago, why shouldn't Wall Street bankers get a holiday for something they're doing right now?"
Congress is expected to act quickly on the proposal. "There's an election in November," said one campaign manager, "And we all know that a happy Wall Street banker is a generous Wall Street Banker!"
http://rewinn.blogspot.com/2010/02/penny-for-your-banker-holiday-propose...
@mstaggerlee -
And the reason GM didn't assign the manufacture of one of continuing car lines to the Nummi plant is...? Please don't get me wrong, I'm not against the workers there. But why just blame Toyota while, apparently, holding GM blameless? It's a bit too close to the return of the Japan-bashing from the early 1990's for my comfort.
I propose that we start using a more accurate term to describe the corporate Republicans: Corporate Royalists. (Unfortunately, this applies as well to many Democrats as well.)
Like the Royalists of old, they prefer the authority of a non-democratic elite to that of the people. Some conflate Corporations with Religion to make their allegience to an "Ultimate Authority." They are much more comfortable with Corporate Religious leaders, those who make millions of dollars and have mammoth congregations, than they are with smaller, service oriented church leaders. (Think of their hatred of Aristiede—and Jimmy Carter.)
The BIGGEST IRONY of the Supreme Court Ruling is: while on the one hand, so many scream and yell in fear that an immigrant may come into the US and get a $5 meal, a $25 Vaccine, or even a job, there is not a peep from them when the opening widens for foreign corps to sail in- under the guise of corporate "personhood" - and lay claim to our entire government and our economy. Wake up America ! Focusing on the little distractions lets the bigger storm grow until IT is too big to fail in its purpose.
"Supreme Court Republicans Of The US - I call them SCROTUS cos Democracy just got Teabagged."-John Fugelsang
In Federalist 78,Alexander argues that the judiciary is the least dangerous branch to democracy, and that courts are the true defender of the will of the people....would he feel the same today?
@9 -
In case you hadn't noticed, GM did not simply shut down production of the Pontiac Vibe at the NUMMI plant - they've shut down the entire Pontiac division. The Pontiac brand name is now extinct!
Part of GM's problem was that they were spread too thin - too many divisions with insufficient differentiation, cutting into one another's market segments. It was an unsustainable situation. Chevy & Caddy seem fairly solid, but I think the jury may still be out regarding whether or not Buick can survive over the long haul.
@DRichards -
PLEASE do not propogate the myth of the Democratic Supermajority - we never REALLY had one. With DINOs like LIEberman, Nelson, Lincoln and the like, we could never depend on 60 votes for ANY item on the progressive agenda.
The "Democrat Supermajority" was just another piece of FOX-speak, used to demonstrate that even though we had the numbers, we were still incapable of leadership. Helping them spread that meme does not advance any progressive cause.
Well Thom, I thought your interview with Mr. Lopez was rather superficial. You were intent on attacking the Japanese manufacturer Toyota while leaving out the fact that GM (who jointly operated the plant with Toyota) pulled the manufacturing of the Pontiac Vibe out of the plant last June. Where's your criticism of GM for leaving pulling out of that plant - leaving it for Toyota, apparently, to be criticized for pulling the one to turn out the last lights? Toyota might have benefited the most from Cash For Clunkers, but GM got bailed out by us taxpayers. I don't recall you criticizing GM for leaving that plant, did you?
Also, apparently, the land that plant is sitting on is being eyed by major league baseball's Oakland Athletics franchise.
I see the mob lawyer mayor of las vegas says Obama is not welcome in his town because Obama mentioned vegas as someplace you would not go if you were struggling in this economy.Well mob lawyer mayor Goldman got offended.Maybe he should be working with the other politicians to see what other kind of jobs they can get in there so they are not dependent on casinos.They got greedy with the building in vegas and now that is hurting.Really that is all they have casinos and building and they have abused it all.
I see your Marx quote and raise you a quote from Bakunin!
"Socialism Is Justice...Socialism is justice. When we speak of justice, we understand thereby not the justice contained in the Codes and in Roman jurisprudence - which were based to a great extent upon facts of violence achieved by force, violence consecrated by time and by the benedictions of some church or other (Christian or pagan), and as such accepted as absolute principles, from which all law is to be deduced by a process of logical reasoning - no, we speak of that justice which is based solely upon human conscience, the justice to be found in the consciousness of every man - even in that of children - and which can be expressed in a single word: equity.
This universal justice which, owing to conquests by force and religious influences, has never yet prevailed in the political or juridical or economic worlds, should become the basis of the new world. Without it there can be neither liberty, nor republic, nor prosperity, nor peace. It then must govern our resolutions in order that we work effectively toward the establishment of peace. And this justice urges us to take upon ourselves the defense of the interests of the terribly maltreated people and demand their economic and social emancipation along with political freedom. " - Mikhail Bakunin